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Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:16PM (#15298346)
solution: Make the political system have less influence in our lives. Make politicians less valuable to purchase
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by tynpeddler on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:42PM (#15299011)
This solution is less scary than it seems. If you're worried about "power", and who has it, just remember that not all power is equivalent, or needs to be held by the state.

For example, states hold a limited power to seize property. I'm pretty sure that no one wants states to have an unlimited power to seize property. The states power to kill is similarly curtailed.

One power that that different levels of the government seem to be expanding more and more, is what I like to call 'Special Consideration'. Whenever a city pours huge amounts of money in the form of bonds and tax breaks into a sports stadium for their local team, that's special consideration; it's a financial transfer for a specific private entity that is not automatically available to other private entities. Special consideration can be hugely hugely profitable for the private entity and incentivizes lobbying.

There are two points to keep in mind. Not all special consideration is bad, and not all forms of corruption fall under special consideration(obviously), but I do think that curtailing government's power to grant favors to individual private actors, and thereby distort the market, would decrease the value of lobbying.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by drewrv on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:08PM (#15298772)
I can't figure out why this attitude is so prevalent among techies. Imagine if we gave up on computers because there was a bug!
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:21AM (#15304338)
Far from an appropriate analogy. More like, spilling coffee on my keyboard makes it work like shit. Better fix it by pouring more coffee on it!
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by krapp on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:13PM (#15298801)
This attitude is more akin to techies avoiding proprietary code because they consider it fundamentally immoral.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by erikb on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:42PM (#15298590)
sure. and counter ecological collapse by simply stopping to breathe right?

Look, there are things that can't be avoided. And most people like to be lead and kept in an illusion of safety. That disgusting fact may actually be what makes us stronger than all other current participants on this planet.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:39AM (#15304538)
"if the government was any smaller, the environment would DIE!"

"People need rulers!"

We wouldn't get along.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by CraigJPerry on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:24PM (#15298426)
What would the replacement look like, where would the displaced power go?
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by jandrese on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:26PM (#15298439)
I'm sure benevolent corporations will step in to fill that power vacuum. It could usher in a glorious new guilded age.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:33AM (#15304462)
hahah yes, the old "you believe in smaller government so you must want unlimited corporate power" argument. Not sure there is an easier way to illustrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the libertarian position.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by jandrese on Thursday September 21, 2017 @12:18PM (#15304984)
If government is limited, what is the check on corporate power? What is going to fill that void? The market? The market only cares about money. There is no magical fairy that will make profit oriented enterprises suddenly care about non-profit objectives.

The old "people won't buy stuff from companies that are dicking them over or killing the envionrment", always conveniently ignores the fact that if one company is behaving badly but getting better profits (exploiting their workers for short term gain, dumping toxic waste into the rivers, etc...), they will ultimately consume any well behaved competitors.

Unfettered markets are pure dog eat dog territory, and frivolities like environmental protection and human rights do not survive. We know what unregulated markets look like, they are cities filled with factories churning out toxic smoke, hospitals full of terminal cancer cases, people dying on the street, and everything else you read about in the Industrial Age. Or go to any factory city in China. They're making tons of shareholder profit and they're dying at the same time.

Libertarians are the worst at not fully thinking through the ramifications of their positions.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @02:46PM (#15306293)
Government IS the check on corporate power! You are the one who is misunderstood. As a libertarian, I believe governments are vital to a civil society (never said I was an anarchist). I believe governments SHOULD have (granted to it by the people who it represents) pretty ultimate powers in dealing with bad-actors. However, those powers should only be used in very specific situations; Does person A's actions infringe on person B's rights. Spewing toxic smoke into the air and making me sick is an act of physical violence towards me; the government should step in. The government picking winners and losers in a marketplace based on special interests and who can lobby more effectively doesn't protect my rights - it infringes on them.

All people, whether they work for a massive corporation or within the government, make most of their decisions based on personal self interest. Give corporate entities unfettered power, they will stomp on people. Give government unfettered power, they will stomp on people. It's all about channeling the individual's drive to improve their own life towards the best interest of the collective. A free-market and a government whose sole purpose it is to protect individual rights, is the best way to do it.

I don't believe in unlimited corporate power because people are fallible. I don't believe in unlimited government power because people are fallible.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by jandrese on Thursday September 21, 2017 @04:23PM (#15307005)
What kind of check on corporate power can a government be when it is reduced to only national defense and maybe police? I don't run into many libertarians that argue that we should keep the corporate regulations.

I think you may not be in line with mainstream libertarians.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @04:41PM (#15307148)
I am 100% in line with mainstream libertarians. I don't think we should keep "corporate" regulations. I think the government should wield its power to prevent one person from infringing on another person's rights, whether they work in government or a corporation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fun fact: the government and the largest corporations are made up of exactly the same thing - people looking out for their self interests. There is nothing more sinister or more benevolent about either of them (in composition).

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by jandrese on Friday September 22, 2017 @07:51PM (#15317013)
That makes no sense.

The government should prevent bad things from happening, but they won't have any framework or enforcement mechanisms for doing so.

What do you think corporate (and other) regulations are for? How do you think they are enforced? You want the government to stop people from dumping poison in a river and killing people and animals hundreds of miles downstream, and do it without an EPA or environmental regulation, not even a definition of what "poison" is, much less written penalties for putting it in the environment uncontrolled. If you don't agree on something and write it down you'll be stuck arguing the details for years and years every time there is a dispute.

"You are poisoning the water and killing people!" "Nope, this stuff isn't that dangerous, it must be one of the hundreds of other factories dumping in this river." "We know your stuff is dangerous!" "I don't see that anywhere on here. I say it's safe. You want to spend the next 10 years in court arguing over this? Because I will, and all of your plantiffs will be dead before the case is over and I'll win by default."

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:07AM (#15331047)
You live in a fantasy world if you think our corporate and environmental regulations are limited to just the things that protect your rights.

"Simplifying the tax code would remove the government's ability to tax!" <-- analogous to your claim

I'm saying shrink, not eliminate.

Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:30AM (#15304432)
Back to the individual? The government should protect you from corporations, other individuals, other countries from infringing on your rights to do what you see best. Not dictate or meddle in every aspect of your life. They should be a referee, not a player. I don't think that vacuum needs to exist; I don't think people need rulers.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by maxxxxx on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:24PM (#15298422)
That sounds great in theory but is pretty unrealistic in today's societies.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:19AM (#15304307)
Uhhhhh, making our lives less political is now considered entirely unrealistic? Fun times...
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by maxxxxx on Thursday September 21, 2017 @11:37AM (#15304516)
How will you be running a 400 million people country?
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by djschnei on Thursday September 21, 2017 @04:48PM (#15307213)
I'd write some document, call it the law-of-the-land, make everyone that wanted to stay agree with it, everyone else could leave. It would set up some very precise and strict rules about what I (the government) was allowed to do. I would let individuals cooperate as they see best. I would protect people's rights and punish those who infringe their neighbors. I'd probably follow these rules for a couple hundred years, then say "screw it" and do whatever I wanted.
Re:American Democracy Is Drowning in Money by zizek23 on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:33PM (#15298491)
Won't they simply purchase what does have more influence in our lives then?