The problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote.

I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones.

But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no.

Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy the independist movement they could have modified the Constitution and allow that consult, the majority here is against the independence.

What a majority wants here is the right to vote

Sure. Just a coincidence that kind of speech 'we just want to vote', 'I'm going to say no but want to vote in this illegal referendum', I only hear it from secessionists.

Sure, you know better my political views than me.

Listen, there is more than the present status quo or independence, there a people that want less descentralization, there is people that want a federal state and there is people that wants a confederal state.

And a fucking lot of people support that others can decide want they want to be and, at the same time, doesn't agree whit their views.

I think people like you, that see this situation in balck and white and think that anyone that doesn't see like you is an independentist are part of the problem, no of the solution.

There's no better way to change his vote to a definite "yes" than by refusing to allow him to voice his opinion.

If Madrid listened half as well as it sneered, I suspect they'd have better relations with all their immediate neighbors.

Is it also sneering when money pours from central state?

https://www.invertia.com/es/-/-que-autonomias-deben-mas-dine...

Man, the obsession with 'Madrid'! I think all Spaniards have a voice in this.

If your wife wants to divorce you, do you think she should require your permission first?

When it is said Madrid, like when it is said Paris, Washington or London in a political context, what is referenced is the federal/central government

Probably just fine? Slovenia seemed to manage alright, and their economy is positively tiny.

Slovenia doesn't have the public spending Catalonia has.

Catalonia sends much more money to the central government than it receives (the difference is an amount equivalent to 8% of the region's GDP, according to a Guardian article that's a few years old). I wonder why shaking off the central government wouldn't be a win for them financially, even if they spend more than they ought to.

This is only a part of the entire equation. Politics could be happy and sell their triumph for a while, but entrepreneurs an companies at this point would had a big problem and probably not so happy

Yeah, I think this whole secession thing is a bad idea since the less tangible parts of breaking up a functioning country are so awful. It's pretty much always a better idea to fix things if it is possible.

So I say advisedly that if the attitude and misunderstanding of facts among some of the unionists here is representative of a larger whole, it might not be possible to fix things. That's an outsider's point of view.

Ask UK. There are 10 countries as many outside in EU as inside. I am pro EU, but if this has to be in the way of a more important and noble interest, then we stay out.