Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover.
The same forces in Spanish society who did that are the same forces which seek to destroy Catalan autonomy again. By the same means, policemen kicking down the door. You dismiss prior referendums, fine. There is going to be one in 11 days. So if those polls you cite are true, then it seems independence will not happen. It's bizarre to call a referendum in ten days "outrageously undemocratic", while decades of a brutal dictatorship established by an invasion and the murder of thousands afterward goes without mention.
The problem with the referendum results is that they can’t be accurate. They’re asking people to bring the ballots printed at home, and there’s no accurate census. No observers either. Not that the Catalonian government cares, of course.
Yes, Azaña said those words in March, 27, 1930, in the Restaurant Patria (Barcelona) but soon he learned about his error, and the grave consequences of that speech.
In May, 1937, Azaña wrote in his diary: "las muchas y muy enormes y escandalosas [...] pruebas de insolidaridad y despego, de hostilidad, de 'chantajismo' que la política catalana ha dado frente al gobierno de la República".
And then he added: "Y si esas gentes van a descuartizar a España, prefiero a Franco. Con Franco ya nos entenderíamos nosotros, o nuestros hijos, o quien fuere, pero estos hombres son inaguantables. Acabarían por dar la razón a Franco".
EDIT: Also, those quotes just show that the iconoclast and rebellions attitude of Catalonia against the central government is quite old, and not just an invention of some corrupt politicians to divert attention :)
Also 80 years is a lot or not.
Pau Claris, head of the Generalitat of Catalonia, called the politician members of the all Principality in order to form a Junta de Braços or Braços Generals (General Estates), a consultive body. (...) This assembly, which worked with individual voting, began to create and apply various revolutionary measures (...), while the tension with the monarchy grew.
Echoes of the past :)
So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?
Just trying to follow your reasoning.
For example, the wide majority that is needed for constitutional changes would require agreement at the federal level even beyond parties that are part of the government. Also, some constitutions have provisions that are explicitly listed as un-amendable.
In the case of Catalunya there are other issues. For example, admission to the EU of Catalunya would probably be vetoed by Spain and by almost any other country that has regions with strong separatist movements (e.g. Spain would have vetoed the admission of Scotland, had the Scottish referendum passed). This would be a big unknown for Catalan economy.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforma_de_la_Constituci%C3%B3...
There IS a procedure for modifying the constitution, and it requieres 2/3 of the senate to agree.
Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption. But it doesn't mean they can't defend some ideology anymore. Besides, this is not some crazy politician's idea, but a movement from people ranging from the far left to the Christian democracy. Some parties changed their positions to "ride the wave", though.
> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
And how you know that? Polls? Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.
The smaller the government the less corruption would be my assumption. Iceland seems to do a pretty good job of listening to its people.
> Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.
Regarding polls, I have a theory that you should always lie if asked in one. The less validity that polls have, the less they can be used to manipulate the vote.
If no one believes what the polls say, there will have less influence and there be less chance of tactical voting, which is a real problem with our current version of democracy. Maybe some people think that tactical voting is a good thing, but in my lifetime it always seems to be the case that people are voting for the lesser of two evils, rather than what they actually believe in. Is that really what democracy is supposed to be about?
It's understandable given the filibusterism, and outright prohibitions you would expect from the central government. Referendum has been proposed for 7 years and it was rejected every time.
Catalonia has less corruption than Spain in average. Even though the National Police and the judiciary have a very strong bias in favor of spanish parties.
On the other hand, you can't be serious saying that in the region of Catalonia there's less corruption than in the whole Spain.
find the ratios and then the ratios of population. Thank you.
You can have 500 politicians stealing 1 million euros each, and 5 politicians stealing 1 billion each.
Curious way of counting corruption
And, by the way, I think Catalonia is exactly as corrupt as the rest of the Spain, it is not a problem of the comunity, is a problem of the whole society which rewards that any people steal taxes or don't pay VAT
CiU, PP and PSOE are equal regarding corruption.
Madrid would not react as brutally as they do if their intelligence services foresee such a result; they would just protest and deny vote legitimacy as they usually did the previous times, and let the vote be.
Are you really serious?
We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing.
These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.
How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?
The proper thing for the Spanish government to do is to sit down with the Catalans and engage in meaningful dialogue. Not kick in doors and jail people for participating in a non-binding referendum.
If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.
Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government has the mandate from last elections to find a way for the Catalans to exercise this right even if Spain opposes, given that Spain has also refused all previous proposals to find a solution.
Catalans literally have no other option. They either waive their right to self-determination or they exercise it.
Some relevant sources:
Referendum Law: http://dogc.gencat.cat/ca/pdogc_canals_interns/pdogc_resulta...
The Legitimacy of Catalonia's Exercise of its Right to Decide (a Report by a Commission of International Experts): https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9115/0461/7417/EXECUTIVE_SUMM...
https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
- Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1 (Purposes and Principles), article 1.2: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace" [1]
- International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, article 1.1 (check out other points and article 2): All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. [2]
- International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 1.1: [pretty much same text as International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights) [3]
- Spanish Constitution, part 1 (Fundamental Rights and Duties), Section 10.2: "Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain." [4]
Though you only had to check Wikipedia: "The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule)" [5]
[1] http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm...
[2] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.asp...
[3] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx
[4] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Pa...
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribunal_Superior_de_Justicia_...
Do you have sources, because the last I know is from El Periodico (against independence) and the amount of people supporting a referendum was almost 80%
It seems to have risin after the attacks.
http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/07/21/5971c7f7468aebd53d...
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/23/catalunya/1506191226_2201...
> Hasta un 82% de catalanes se muestran partidarios de solucionar el problema catalán con un referéndum pactado y plenamente legal sobre la independencia. La idea seduce a la inmensa mayoría de los partidos independentistas pero también recoge numerosos apoyos entre las fuerzas constitucionalistas.
You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which is ilegal to do).
And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate census) but also take into account participation (usually very low).
In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.