Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by nsparrow on Saturday September 16, 2017 @10:23AM
(#15264761)
Robert Harrison, the author and professor at Stanford, also has a podcast, Entitled Opinions, that may be of interest to HN [1]. He recently did a fascinating episode on artificial intelligence & the singularity, approaching AI from a philosophical standpoint with a Stanford computer scientist [2].
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by dmckeon on Sunday September 17, 2017 @12:06AM
(#15268174)
As technologists, let's not overlook Thoreau's tech work [0] -
he made the lead pencil into a profitable product in the US:
and could be said to have invented the "Number 2 lead pencil"
in that the technique of blending graphite and clay made
it possible for his family's company to produce different
grades of pencils.
To be fair, European pencil-makers were using a similar
process as a trade secret at the time, and the market share
of Thoreau pencils was helped by high tariffs. Still,
HDT was not just a dreamer and writer in the woods, but
a technologist improving the very tools he wrote with.
"The real Thoreau was, in the fullest sense of the word, self-obsessed: narcissistic, fanatical about self-control, adamant that he required nothing beyond himself to understand and thrive in the world."
Some highlights:
-HDT was unmoved by dead bodies from a shipwreck, thought they "enhanced" the beauty of the beach.
-A 6' x 3' toolshed with air holes would "make a fine home" (he added he was "not jesting")
-He turned up his nose at food: explicitly condemning salt (the "grossest of groceries") and jam and exhorted readers to limit themselves to 1 meal a day, at most
-He despised his admirers and was superior, condescending and rude, referring to his fellow Concordians as "pygmies and manikins."
-He didn't believed in philanthropy or helping others because it he had "tried it fairly" but it "didn't agree with [his] constitution."
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by hellofunk on Saturday September 16, 2017 @12:41PM
(#15265385)
> exhorted readers to limit themselves to 1 meal a day, at most
This is actually something that a lot of people are doing today, and many nutritionists recommend calorie restrictive diets along these lines. Whether or not you also do this, I see no relevance to the output of HDT's work and its value.
> He despised his admirers and was superior, condescending and rude,
You've just described the majority of major artists who have ever lived. As well as many scientists. Einstein was arrogant too, but who cares, really.
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by mcguire on Saturday September 16, 2017 @02:03PM
(#15265765)
From this article:
"The view of Thoreau as a hypocritical jerk is alive and well. In an article about Walden in The New Yorker (October 19, 2015), Kathryn Schulz works herself into a froth of indignation as she denounces him for his “hypocrisy, his sanctimony, his dour asceticism, and his scorn,” claiming, as many others before her have, that “he was as parochial as he was egotistical.” Thoreau does Schulz one better in Walden, where he writes: “I never knew, and never shall know, a worse man than myself.”"
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by DougWebb on Saturday September 16, 2017 @12:48PM
(#15265419)
A bunch of years ago, I had a business trip to Concord. I re-read Walden Pond shortly before going, and I stayed in the Inn that his parents owned (it's still there.) I didn't actually visit Walden Pond (it's still there too) but I was surprised at how close it is to the Inn at the center of Concord. He described it as if he had set off into the wilderness to survive on his own, but it really is more like he built a treehouse in his neighbor's back yard.
This map [0] shows the center of town at the top, and his cabin 1.3 miles away at the bottom.
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by leggomylibro on Saturday September 16, 2017 @03:56PM
(#15266413)
Yeah, I used to live in the area and went to see Walden Pond a few times. There's a big pile of stones where his house used to be; it became a 'thing' for everyone who sees it to toss one onto the pile. They also have a recreation of his hut.
But like you said, he wasn't exactly roughing it. I was being sarcastic about the whole 'hero' thing, he could've walked to a grocery store if he wanted to.
I've since moved to Seattle, where there are all kinds of people living in tents and huts on private land, occasionally with permission. Most people don't seem to view it very favorably out here. Can't imagine why; maybe it's one of those East Coast / West Coast things. Also, in fairness to the guy, I don't think Thoreau was associated with too many stabbings or shootings.
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by eighthnate on Saturday September 16, 2017 @10:50AM
(#15264866)
> Some highlights:
Mahler was antisemitc. Pope was sexist. If you judged works of art by who the author is, then most works of art would be viewed as rubbish.
> HDT is not one of them, IMHO.
Just because you disagree with his ascetic and "anti-social" lifestyle doesn't mean he wasn't a great writer. Walden and Civil Disobedience are easily some of the most important and iconic writings in american literature.
Many of the great writers are eccentric. You can't judge works of art based on who the author is.
The amount of anti-intellectualism pushed by the social justice left is rather alarming. If HDT wasn't a great american writer, then there is no such thing as a "great american writer".
I just had a debate the other day with someone who claimed Mark Twain was a terrible writer because he used the N word in his books. Now I have to defend Thoreau? What's going on here?
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by CharlesW on Saturday September 16, 2017 @12:12PM
(#15265252)
> What's going on here?
Nothing new, I think. The complications of Good Art created by Bad People has always been a thing in the modern world (see Bill Cosby, Woody Allen, Chris Brown, Roman Polanski, etc.).
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by uhhhouses on Saturday September 16, 2017 @11:39AM
(#15265097)
Well, you don't have to defend Thoreau, just his writings.
Which I would appreciate, BTW—I loved walden pond as a kid, but now it reads like a friend's #minimalism #tinyhouse medium blog. Civil disobedience was obsoleted by people with causes saying everything better. Where is the value in his text in contemporary society outside of nostalgia?
Re:The True American: On Henry David Thoreau
by eighthnate on Saturday September 16, 2017 @12:14PM
(#15265259)
> Well, you don't have to defend Thoreau, just his writings.
I know. That's my point. The guy was attack thoreau, not his writing.
> Which I would appreciate, BTW—I loved walden pond as a kid, but now it reads like a friend's #minimalism #tinyhouse medium blog.
Did you really? If it reads like your friend's #minimalism then you really haven't read it.
> Where is the value in his text in contemporary society outside of nostalgia?
Nostalgia? The value lies in its influence and its cultural impact, not just in america but the world. Almost every american writer in the 19th century was influenced by thoreau. He's pretty much the godfather of american writers. Here is a cliff notes version.
Not only that, he was one of the biggest and influential abolitionist voices and his civil disobedience influenced everyone from gandhi to martin luther king.
Thoreau is a FOUNDATIONAL writer of america and american civilization. He helped form and define and describe the american character. It's okay to disagree with the guy's values/opinions/etc. But to claim that he isn't a great writer or he isn't relevant is just political posturing.
Do you think the bible is not great literature or a great work of art? Is it just nostalgia? I can't believe I am even debating this. If you find thoreau to be disagreeable. Fine. But to claim a work that is foundational to america and influenced everyone from gandhi to MLK a century later as "nostalgia" is agenda driven nonsense.
"Here, in this courageous New Englander's refusal to pay his taxes and his choice of jail rather than support a war that would spread slavery's territory into Mexico, I made my first contact with the theory of nonviolent resistance. Fascinated by the idea of refusing to cooperate with an evil system, I was so deeply moved that I reread the work several times. I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest. The teachings of Thoreau came alive in our civil rights movement; indeed, they are more alive than ever before. Whether expressed in a sit-in at lunch counters, a freedom ride into Mississippi, a peaceful protest in Albany, Georgia, a bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama, these are outgrowths of Thoreau's insistence that evil must be resisted and that no moral man can patiently adjust to injustice"
[1]: https://entitledopinions.stanford.edu/
[2]: https://entitledopinions.stanford.edu/sam-ginn-singularity
To be fair, European pencil-makers were using a similar process as a trade secret at the time, and the market share of Thoreau pencils was helped by high tariffs. Still, HDT was not just a dreamer and writer in the woods, but a technologist improving the very tools he wrote with.
[0] http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people-/faculty/debaron/482...
"The real Thoreau was, in the fullest sense of the word, self-obsessed: narcissistic, fanatical about self-control, adamant that he required nothing beyond himself to understand and thrive in the world."
Some highlights:
-HDT was unmoved by dead bodies from a shipwreck, thought they "enhanced" the beauty of the beach.
-A 6' x 3' toolshed with air holes would "make a fine home" (he added he was "not jesting")
-He turned up his nose at food: explicitly condemning salt (the "grossest of groceries") and jam and exhorted readers to limit themselves to 1 meal a day, at most
-He despised his admirers and was superior, condescending and rude, referring to his fellow Concordians as "pygmies and manikins."
-He didn't believed in philanthropy or helping others because it he had "tried it fairly" but it "didn't agree with [his] constitution."
Read on for more.
There are many great 19th C American writers (some ex: https://www.thoughtco.com/notable-authors-of-the-19th-centur...). HDT is not one of them, IMHO.
This is actually something that a lot of people are doing today, and many nutritionists recommend calorie restrictive diets along these lines. Whether or not you also do this, I see no relevance to the output of HDT's work and its value.
> He despised his admirers and was superior, condescending and rude,
You've just described the majority of major artists who have ever lived. As well as many scientists. Einstein was arrogant too, but who cares, really.
"The view of Thoreau as a hypocritical jerk is alive and well. In an article about Walden in The New Yorker (October 19, 2015), Kathryn Schulz works herself into a froth of indignation as she denounces him for his “hypocrisy, his sanctimony, his dour asceticism, and his scorn,” claiming, as many others before her have, that “he was as parochial as he was egotistical.” Thoreau does Schulz one better in Walden, where he writes: “I never knew, and never shall know, a worse man than myself.”"
https://www.ft.com/content/9c09b94e-7cfb-11e7-ab01-a13271d1e...
sniff. Truly a great American hero.
This map [0] shows the center of town at the top, and his cabin 1.3 miles away at the bottom.
[0] https://goo.gl/maps/Wih3s6iTJ3u
But like you said, he wasn't exactly roughing it. I was being sarcastic about the whole 'hero' thing, he could've walked to a grocery store if he wanted to.
I've since moved to Seattle, where there are all kinds of people living in tents and huts on private land, occasionally with permission. Most people don't seem to view it very favorably out here. Can't imagine why; maybe it's one of those East Coast / West Coast things. Also, in fairness to the guy, I don't think Thoreau was associated with too many stabbings or shootings.
Mahler was antisemitc. Pope was sexist. If you judged works of art by who the author is, then most works of art would be viewed as rubbish.
> HDT is not one of them, IMHO.
Just because you disagree with his ascetic and "anti-social" lifestyle doesn't mean he wasn't a great writer. Walden and Civil Disobedience are easily some of the most important and iconic writings in american literature.
Many of the great writers are eccentric. You can't judge works of art based on who the author is.
The amount of anti-intellectualism pushed by the social justice left is rather alarming. If HDT wasn't a great american writer, then there is no such thing as a "great american writer".
I just had a debate the other day with someone who claimed Mark Twain was a terrible writer because he used the N word in his books. Now I have to defend Thoreau? What's going on here?
Nothing new, I think. The complications of Good Art created by Bad People has always been a thing in the modern world (see Bill Cosby, Woody Allen, Chris Brown, Roman Polanski, etc.).
Mahler was a Jew.
Which I would appreciate, BTW—I loved walden pond as a kid, but now it reads like a friend's #minimalism #tinyhouse medium blog. Civil disobedience was obsoleted by people with causes saying everything better. Where is the value in his text in contemporary society outside of nostalgia?
I know. That's my point. The guy was attack thoreau, not his writing.
> Which I would appreciate, BTW—I loved walden pond as a kid, but now it reads like a friend's #minimalism #tinyhouse medium blog.
Did you really? If it reads like your friend's #minimalism then you really haven't read it.
> Where is the value in his text in contemporary society outside of nostalgia?
Nostalgia? The value lies in its influence and its cultural impact, not just in america but the world. Almost every american writer in the 19th century was influenced by thoreau. He's pretty much the godfather of american writers. Here is a cliff notes version.
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t/thoreau-emerson-and...
Not only that, he was one of the biggest and influential abolitionist voices and his civil disobedience influenced everyone from gandhi to martin luther king.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/martin-luther-king-...
Thoreau is a FOUNDATIONAL writer of america and american civilization. He helped form and define and describe the american character. It's okay to disagree with the guy's values/opinions/etc. But to claim that he isn't a great writer or he isn't relevant is just political posturing.
Do you think the bible is not great literature or a great work of art? Is it just nostalgia? I can't believe I am even debating this. If you find thoreau to be disagreeable. Fine. But to claim a work that is foundational to america and influenced everyone from gandhi to MLK a century later as "nostalgia" is agenda driven nonsense.
"Here, in this courageous New Englander's refusal to pay his taxes and his choice of jail rather than support a war that would spread slavery's territory into Mexico, I made my first contact with the theory of nonviolent resistance. Fascinated by the idea of refusing to cooperate with an evil system, I was so deeply moved that I reread the work several times. I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest. The teachings of Thoreau came alive in our civil rights movement; indeed, they are more alive than ever before. Whether expressed in a sit-in at lunch counters, a freedom ride into Mississippi, a peaceful protest in Albany, Georgia, a bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama, these are outgrowths of Thoreau's insistence that evil must be resisted and that no moral man can patiently adjust to injustice"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau#Influence
Wow, that’s so condescending I could be convinced Thoreau himself wrote it.