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Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by apeace on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:04PM (#15249325)
> ...when you do use the biometric options we're about to get into, you're still going to need [a pin] on your phone anyway. For example, every time you hard-reboot an iPhone with Touch ID you need to enter the PIN

This is what has been missing from every discussion of this issue that I've seen so far.

The face scan isn't "insecure" even if you're worried about border searches. Just turn off your phone when you get in the security line! Pin will be required on start.

Pin is also required when plugging into a new computer.

The rest of the time when you're going about your daily life, and are not worried about a government agent spoofing your face or pointing the phone at your face, you can use this nice feature.

Most people will be _less_ secure without it. They don't want to punch a pin every time they want to tap their phone to pay for coffee. So without the face scan feature, they will opt for no security at all.

The reboot/plug-in pin requirements change the discussion quite a bit, but are usually ignored, seemingly so bloggers can state the obvious "but someone can spoof your face!"

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by bodz on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:16PM (#15250140)
> The face scan isn't "insecure" even if you're worried about border searches. Just turn off your phone when you get in the security line! Pin will be required on start.

As far as border searches go, border officers have the authority to request your PIN just as they have the authority to request your thumbprint/faceprint/etc. If you don't give it to them, you can be detained and/or your phone confiscated [1]. Rebooting your phone won't help.

1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by morgante on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:50PM (#15251214)
They can request your PIN all they want, but you are not obligated to provide it. They can temporarily detain you but not indefinitely, and the EFF is challenging their authority to even do that. [0]

Personally, I would refuse to unlock my phone. My privacy and upholding civil liberties is worth being detained for a few hours (or even days).

[0] https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-aclu-media-conference...

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by thereare5lights on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:31PM (#15251713)
This only works if your lawyer is with you or you're white.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by greenleafjacob on Thursday September 14, 2017 @08:46PM (#15253714)
Why would you have your lawyer with you? Better to have them outside of the range of border control agents (remote) so they don't get arrested too.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by philfrasty on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:40PM (#15251797)
Does this work for non US-residents e.g. tourist, conference, etc? Or do they politely show you the way out (the country)?
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by morgante on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:46PM (#15251864)
No, if you're just visiting they can ask for whatever they please.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by tastythrowaway on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:13PM (#15252078)
An important point: the would likely confiscate any devices you refuse to unlock. Is it worth that?
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by morgante on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:16PM (#15252115)
Yes. They are supposed to return it eventually, and even if they don't I'm willing to pay $1,000 to protect civil liberties.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by 2close4comfort on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:23PM (#15251624)
Amen!
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by jfoutz on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:19PM (#15250899)
Also, the border is 100 miles from the Mexico/Canada borders and 100 miles from the shore. So, if you're concerned it's not when you're entering or leaving the country. It's any time you're in LA, NY, DC, SF, Huston or Detroit. Or any of the other thousands of miles of border.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by ianmiers on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:06PM (#15252019)
Common misconception: If you have crossed the boarder, then within 100 miles of it they can search you.

Of course, how you prove you didn't cross the boarder is an open question. But you can in fact refuse the search on that claim. I suppose they may detain you then.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by jfoutz on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:56PM (#15252447)
I think you're looking for the phrase `probable cause`. If the officer has probable cause to think you crossed the border, they can search you. I'm not a lawyer, but i think they can search you anyway. It just won't be admissible in court.

edit

to clarify, US law pushes police right up to the edge. there is a preference for false positives rather than false negatives. it's more important to catch all of the criminals than it is to inconvenience some innocent people. The risk of letting one criminal go is much more than cost of detaining a doctor for a couple of hours.

Now, we're in this weird time where that doctor can have 20 years of hippa protected medical records in their pocket that they might be forced to disclose. Historically, that doctor may have some records in a briefcase, but not tens of thousands.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by jdavis703 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @07:17PM (#15253283)
There are inland checkpoints, even on the Canadian border that search people who've been in the country for a while: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/border-patrol-checkpoint-i....

They can even nab American citizens for drug possession:

"One of the people arrested was a U.S. citizen who fled the checkpoint and led the police on a five-mile chase. The unnamed man was arrested and charged with three felonies, including reckless driving, possessing a controlled substance, and endangering the welfare of a minor."

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by apeace on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:56PM (#15251940)
I read that they are not able to force you to provide a pin.

But even if you're right, this doesn't change my argument. Most people are less secure most of the time in the absence of biometric authentication. Because without it, they will opt for zero security. You can always use the pin in addition, for whatever that's worth.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by skore on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:39PM (#15252736)
You know what would be really neat? A different, restricted/camouflaged unlock when you make a slight facial expression that would probably go unnoticed.

regular face: regular unlock right eyebrow raised a tiny bit: hide my sensitive stuff from a casual search*

*and after a few minutes, if I don't deactivate it, start deleting.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by eridius on Thursday September 14, 2017 @08:09PM (#15253534)
Unfortunately, lying (including fraudulent representation) to a federal agent is a crime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements).
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by n42 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:12PM (#15249420)
On top of this, iOS 11 introduced an emergency mode that is enabled by tapping the standby button five times rapidly. It is easy to do discretely in your pocket, and it locks your phone by requiring your passcode to be entered again.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by crindy on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:54PM (#15249914)
One thing to note: It's at least five times, not exactly. Just click that side button until your phone vibrates a bit and it's locked. I mainly see myself using this feature in high stress situations, like going through airport security or being pulled over, so not needing to count is a small plus.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by knolan on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:36PM (#15251061)
It's also worth pointing out that iOS already has an option to erase your phone when the PIN is entered incorrectly a certain number of times. A lot of companies enforce this if you receive your work email on your device (eight times in my case). So if you are in a situation where a PIN is being demanded there's still a way to keep secure.

Your phone can be easily restored from an iCloud backup once you've got access to wifi. You can always restore from another device or backup if there's data you don't want seen if somehow you can be compelled to do a restore.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by andrei_says_ on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:58PM (#15251323)
I'm not sure how I feel about storing 100+ GB in icloud and restoring it via my data plan.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by giobox on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:30PM (#15252244)
Local encrypted backups via itunes are an option too, if you are traveling with a laptop.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by kccqzy on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:48PM (#15252380)
Is that still going to work? I have the impression that Apple is simplifying iTunes and removing everything but audio and video.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by giobox on Thursday September 14, 2017 @06:50PM (#15253132)
I haven't tried since installing itunes 12.7 (the version that removes the App Store etc), but reports I've read suggest it still backs up everything with the notable exception of apps. These have to re-download from the appstore on the phone iteself presumably now. I'm assuming though that all app data is preserved (one would hope so!). Happy to be corrected if this proves not the case.

From macdailynews:

"iTunes backups are still there for iOS devices, but performing a restore won’t transfer your apps from your Mac, but will instead download them over the Internet from Apple, which is, of course, likely to be slower."

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by joombaga on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:35PM (#15249658)
You can achieve the same effect on some Android devices by exploiting the password lock from scanning the wrong finger repeatedly.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by irq-1 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @12:58PM (#15249948)
If a judge issues a warrant allowing the police to compel the use of biometrics, can a person use the wrong finger? Courts can't compel someone enter their PIN. So can a court compel not only biometric "use" but the correct biometric?

My Android forces PIN entry after 5 wrong fingerprints.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by tonyztan on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:14PM (#15250119)
If you refuse to tell them which finger you used, and comply by only pressing whichever finger they ask you to press, they will have a 10% chance of getting in each time.

So if you chose only 1 finger and you chose it randomly, they will have a 50% chance of getting in after 5 attempts.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by ithkuil on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:49PM (#15250545)
And hope they're biased against the middle finger
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by valuearb on Thursday September 14, 2017 @07:49PM (#15253446)
You've always been able to do this on iOS as well, but it risks an obstruction of justice charge.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by OkGoDoIt on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:45PM (#15250497)
Since I use fingerprint authentication for the vast majority of authentications with my iPhone, I set the actual pin to a complex alphanumeric password. I only have to enter it a few times a week, so it’s worth the hassle. In this sense fingerprint authentication has significantly improved the security of my phone, because it’s so much more difficult to shoulder surf that alphanumeric password that it is a 4/6 digit numeric pin. Biometric authentication definitely seems like a win to me.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by gist on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:57PM (#15250650)
I don't want to be that 'if you've got nothing to hide then' guy but why are people so worried about what border agents in particular will see on their cell phone?

I am not saying that I wouldn't mind at all if my phone was searched. But I can't think of anything in particular that I would be concerned about if it was. Sure in theory the agent could remember some personal information and come back later and use that info or pass it to someone for some nefarious purpose. But that's a pretty small chance event. It's more or less the equivalent of thinking you will get sick because you find a hair in your food at the restaurant. You don't like it and you send it back or demand a refund but the actual harm is more mental in nature.

Or what am I missing here?

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by Johnny555 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:19PM (#15252605)
There's lots of stuff I'd rather not be seen by strangers. Love notes to/from my wife, love notes to/from my mistress, photos of myself or others that I'd rather not be seen by strangers, financial information (through online banking apps, etc), just to name a few.

How do I know the agent isn't downloading the naked pictures of my wife? (There are lots of reasons to not keep such pictures on my phone, but "Because border agents may see them" should not be one of them)

And there's just the futility of it -- if I really had something to hide from the government, I wouldn't keep it on my phone (or if I did, I'd keep it hidden).

the actual harm is more mental in nature.

That doesn't make it any less real - the government should not make me feel violated.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by milcron on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:03PM (#15251392)
This was a particularly concerning case: https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-bikkan...

    Bikkannavar says he was detained by US Customs and Border Patrol and
    pressured to give the CBP agents his phone and access PIN. Since the phone
    was issued by NASA, it may have contained sensitive material that wasn’t
    supposed to be shared. Bikkannavar’s phone was returned to him after it was
    searched by CBP, but he doesn’t know exactly what information officials
    might have taken from the device.
Once he unlocked his phone, they were gone with it for 40 minutes. Plenty of time to copy the device contents and peruse at their leisure.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by kibwen on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:26PM (#15250970)
Depends on how difficult it is to produce an automated system whereby one needs only plug an unlocked phone into a computer in order to hoover up all locally-stored messages, contacts, saved passwords, synced browser histories, etc. The agent themselves doesn't need to care, they can just be instructed to "unlock the phone, plug it in to this computer, wait until the progress bar finishes, hand phone back". Are you on Github? Is your Github password saved in your browser? Do you have commit access to any marginally important projects? God only knows who has commit access to those projects now. Considering this is HN, I imagine this is an attack vector that a lot of people here are particularly concerned about. Given how much code we use that's written by others, it ought to concern the rest of us as well. :)
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by late2part on Sunday September 17, 2017 @08:50PM (#15272600)
This is not an attack. This is iTunes. This is trivial to do.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by apeace on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:04PM (#15252001)
Not sure why you have been downvoted, since it is a valid question and you phrased it in a productive way.

I think the reason people focus on border searching so much is that it's presumed to be one of the easiest entry points for the government to spy on you.

Many security researchers, such as people who work on Tor and related technologies, have had their electronics searched and sometimes seized at the border. That makes it particularly relevant to the HN crowd.

For me, I seriously doubt the government would ever be interested in my data. But imagine that the CEO of my company is suspected of some kind of crime. Perhaps when I am at the border they try to image my phone, in order to get access to things which may allow them to control other company assets (servers, etc), which would get them closer to their target.

I doubt it would ever happen to me, but I'd rather take precautions. Being searched at the border seems much more likely to me than, say, the NSA/FBI targeting me remotely with malware.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by always_good on Thursday September 14, 2017 @08:01PM (#15253495)
My Canadian friend (woman) made the mistake of making a connecting flight in the States on her way to visit me in Mexico.

The border agent accused her of prostitution. He wanted to get into her phone to see her latest Facebook Messenger and Tinder correspondence. She let him because, of course, it's easier than canceling her entire vacation plans.

Now, the tips in this thread wouldn't have helped her. But do you see how it's not just "I don't have anything to hide?" What about not letting some border agent power trip all over you? Reading your Tinder messages for fucks sake?

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by slazaro on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:28PM (#15250988)
What if they automate the search and copy all your data for further mining and save all that info to see if you're not "desirable" for the "people in power"?
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by colejohnson66 on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:43PM (#15251140)
It’s not about agents looking at your phone; it’s about the slow erosion of our rights among other things
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by corpMaverick on Friday September 15, 2017 @04:25PM (#15260489)
It is not only you. It exposes everybody to be blackmailed by the government or who every gets hold of the information. Judges, politicians, businessmen, scientists, journalists, etc, etc. It weakens the democratic fabric.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by Shinchy on Friday September 15, 2017 @06:48AM (#15256043)
I'm not sure if it's relevant but Dubai and UAE have been known to put people in prison for quite unbelievable reasons often as they were transferring through the airport.

One such instance included a British guy who had shared a Facebook post recommending giving aid to refugees, Dubai police put him in jail over it - that was over a year ago and I believe he's still there. One instance included a microscopic amount of cannabis found on the sole of a passengers shoe, he got almost 4 years in prison.

There are many many other instances, if locking your phone stops them from even chancing it, it might be worthwhile.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by DennisP on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:34PM (#15252701)
What I worry about is Google Authenticator codes for several financial institutions, getting vacuumed out of the phone with everything else and stored on some insufficiently-secured database.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by late2part on Sunday September 17, 2017 @08:53PM (#15272610)
One phrase I've used with success in the past is that I have secure governmental cryptographic codes owned by someone other than myself in my laptop/bag/iphone and am not allowed under law to disclose them to unknown parties such as yourself.

Most first level TSA/DHS people measure the cost/benefit of my assertion and back off.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by cybersol on Thursday September 14, 2017 @08:08PM (#15253527)
Just because you are innocent and have nothing to hide, it does not mean they cannot still use the evidence you provide to convict you. Basically, it comes back to the same reason that many lawyers generally advise you to never talk to the police (1). IANAL.

(1) https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvkgnp/law-professor-poli...

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by Thrymr on Thursday September 14, 2017 @06:32PM (#15253035)
Do you have any work data or email on your device? What is your employer's policy about granting 3rd parties access to such data? Could you be fired for doing so?
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by dpkonofa on Thursday September 14, 2017 @05:01PM (#15252479)
The issue is that they can compel you to unlock the phone and then make an image of the phone's contents which would allow them to clone it to another phone. They would then have full access to everything on your phone including any linked accounts and cloud services.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by giobox on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:36PM (#15252285)
What's on your cellphone today; who knows what it will be tomorrow.

I'd personally much rather the State fundamentally respected a right to private and family life, much like article 8 of the ECHR, but fat chance of seeing that in the USA any time soon.

Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by dpkonofa on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:58PM (#15252465)
You don't even have to do that anymore. With the new OS that will be standard on the new iPhones, you can just tap the power button 5 times to put it into a forced-lock mode. It'll require the use of your passcode before Face ID or Touch ID can be activated.
Re:Face ID, Touch ID, No ID, PINs and Pragmatic Security by ojbyrne on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:54PM (#15251272)
In addition, most customs/immigration lines have signs requiring you to turn off your phone.