"Should be a serious felony," is how we got into the police state we are approaching. Just because it's emotionally distasteful to uglify nature doesn't mean it warrants years in prison, never being able to work again, and never being able to vote again.

But to say, "they left trash everywhere, FELONY!" is a seriously emotional reaction. Criminal justice should be a rational not emotional thing. Is dumping trash the same thing as rape, robbery or murder? Certainly not. Felonies should be reserved for the harshest crimes against people, not littering or ingesting things.

The US has more people incarcerated, not only per capita, but as a total number than any other country in the developed world. This includes China. That statistic shows a serious, systemic problem with our justice system.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-popula...

The American prison system is massive. So massive that its estimated turnover of $74 billion eclipses the GDP of 133 nations.

https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-america...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Ra...

The number of executions has dropped significantly since the Supreme People’s Court regained the power to review all death sentences in 2007; for instance, the Dui Hua Foundation estimates that China executed 12,000 people in 2002, 6,500 people in 2007, and roughly 2,400 in 2013 and 2014.

For actual numbers, we have 2.1 million people imprisoned and China has 1.6 million.

Suspecting ideology is maybe being substituted for objective reality?

The "line" is that we have so many people locked up because of unjust (racist, drugs, whatever) policies. And no doubt this is a very large component of the problem.

However, a very large number of people in prisons are dangerous or violent people who shouldn't be out in society at all and I don't think we could say their incarnation is discriminatory or unjust (although we could justifiably speak about how much of an anti pattern the current prison system.. but that's another topic).

Note: I don't say all, or even most in prisons fit this bill but many do.

I guess the point is a question. Why do we have such large number of violent and criminally minded people in the US? Do we have a larger number than China even taking into account population size differences? I bet we do.

TLDR, criminal justice system is broken in many ways, agreed. But I posit we (in the US) have a more violent and criminal population also. I think this is worth exploring rather than just parroting whatever anti-establishment line is in vogue at the moment.

Federal Drug incarcerations are a much higher percent, but this isn't low level users either.

When we ask, "why do we have so many people locked up?" we also should ask "why do we have so many people we need to lock up"? What the hell is our problem as a society that it's like this?

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html

That just doesn't add up.

According to this, the US vs China has:

6 times the amount of robberies per capita.

4 times the amount of murders per capita.

8 time the amount of burglaries per capita.

and...83 times the amount of assaults per capita (??) <page 2 on chart>.

It also says the US has 30% more people incarcerated than China which at ~4 times the population is indeed ~7 times the per capita incarceration rate. But given the stats above (along with our massive drug use and propensity to lock people up for that) it's not entirely unbelievable either.

I don't think the US has the most violent people in the world, no. But I do suspect the US has the most violent people among the subset of countries with the resources and framework to prosecute and pay for incarceration for that many people.

I suspect it would be difficult to find an actual breakdown of crime stats in China. It would be useful to compare it with a country that is more transparent with that sort of information.

Here's a blurb from the site:

The actual crime rate in China has so far been difficult to assess and confirm. Official statistics from the Chinese government says that crime in China is significantly lower than that of more advanced nations, including and especially the United States. Official estimates say that murder rate in China, for instance, is 5 times lower than that of the US.

#3 is Russia, which I would guess to be equally difficult to get statistics on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2...

Also, looking at the US crime stats, they are spotty as well. The assault rate you noted is from 1999, near our peak. Even with that we aren't #1 on almost all of the compared countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/profiles/United-Sta...

But some of your conclusions are right. The US incarcerates a lot for drug use, and incarcerates a lot longer for any crime. Furthermore, it's difficult to lead a normal life in the US with a record of incarceration which leads to more incarceration.

I do intuitively believe the US has a higher violent crime rate but 83 times the amount of assaults per capita seems a bit much.

How did all that help restore the ruined patch of land?

Really the problem isn't that people demand more and more felonies, but rather that they demand felonies for things that are already illegal.

I may shake my head at clear-cutting and overgrazing but I'll say that I've never been chased off public land by a rancher nor fired upon by lumberjacks. The marijuana growers are ... unique.

Don't have a link handy, though.

My hill walking dad curses the mountain bikers and their damage to the terrain - leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but memories.

Enjoy your lands.