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Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by Ajedi32 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:27PM (#15187263)
Out of curiosity, are there any laws on the books right now which are meant to prevent this sort of thing?

For example, let's assume a foreign government decided to purchase ads either backing or attacking a US political candidate, and they were completely overt about it. (No hiding behind shell companies or transferring funds anonymously; completely out in the open.) Are there any laws or systems currently in place which would stop them from doing that?

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by AaronFriel on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:40PM (#15187343)
There are laws against foreign nationals to provide a "thing of value" to a US political campaign. This is obviously a difficult thing to tease out. My source on this is Eugene Volokh, a law professor and First Amendment attorney: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

The fundamental question then is: was this intentional on behalf of the foreign agent to provide a "thing of value" to a US political campaign, and/or did a political candidate or campaign solicit this?

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by Ajedi32 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @09:09PM (#15188427)
But in this hypothetical scenario they're not donating to a political campaign, they're buying advertising space directly from a private organization.

I suppose you could argue that ads which advocate for a political candidate could count as a "thing of value" for that candidate, but even in that case, there _is_ no foreign national to punish here; the entity that funded the effort is a foreign government, not an individual person.

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by AaronFriel on Sunday September 10, 2017 @06:53PM (#15214733)
One doesn't have to donate to a political campaign to contribute a "thing of value" to a campaign, that argument is elaborated on in the link I shared. The law does not define thing of value to be a donation or monetary contribution to a campaign, but something much broader, see 52 U.S.C. § 30121.

Likewise, foreign national is a legal term that includes foreign principals, which includes governments, see 22 U.S.C. § 611.

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by elipsey on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:50PM (#15187399)
TFA:

"Under federal law and Federal Election Commission regulations, both foreign nationals and foreign governments are prohibited from making contributions or spending money to influence a federal, state or local election in the United States. The ban includes independent expenditures made in connection with an election.

Those banned from such spending include foreign citizens, foreign governments, foreign political parties, foreign corporations, foreign associations and foreign partnerships, according to the FEC."

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by Ajedi32 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @09:13PM (#15188440)
> foreign governments, foreign political parties

How is that enforced? A US court can't exactly send the Russian government or the Communist Party of China to prison for breaking the law here, can it?

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by JamesCoyne on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:45PM (#15187367)
The Federal Election Commission would have something to say:

"The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment." [0]

The definition of "foreign national" is quite broad.

How this works with regards to PAC contributions is unclear to me.

[0] https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:06PM (#15187514)
> Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

Who are these "persons"?

It can't logically be the foreign nationals who are attempting to help a campaign. They're not under the jurisdiction of US federal law.

It also can't logically be the candidates. Otherwise, the obvious tactic would be to provide overt, unrequested aid to the opposition candidate(s) and send them all to jail.

I'm not sure it can be Facebook or other Internet sides. It is true that Facebook is a US company, but the content on their sites is protected under the DMCA safe harbor exemption. And then the law wouldn't handle the case of sites not under US ownership.

FECA dates back to the 70s, and it doesn't seem to do a good job of handling the globalization of the Internet. If someone from overseas looked at the facts themselves and, without talking to a candidate, just plastered Google and Facebook and YouTube and Twitter with endorsement of one candidate and criticism of another, is it reasonable to try to stop them?

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:52PM (#15187783)
> It can't logically be the foreign nationals who are attempting to help a campaign. They're not under the jurisdiction of US federal law.

Criminal violations of US laws whose prohibition is not expressly territorially restricted that occur outside of the US are successfully prosecuted in US courts with some frequency. Bringing people before the court for prosecution may be challenging where extradition isn't an option, but outright kidnapping from a foreign country or even full-scale military military invasion to do so have occurred.

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by Ajedi32 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @09:04PM (#15188411)
In this this hypothetical scenario though it's not even a "person" providing the funds, but a foreign government organization. A US court can't "fine or imprison" the Communist Party of China, or the Russian GRU, for example.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by dragonwriter on Thursday September 07, 2017 @02:47PM (#15194675)
A US court can fine or imprison any of the individual people who comprise, direct as superiors, or act on the direction of those abstract entities that the US executive branch arranges, by whatever means (which, again, have historically included both foreign kidnapping and outright invasion) to bring before the court. Vladimir Putin is obviously, as a practical matter, much safer from that than Manuel Noriega was, but lower level individuals may not be so much.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by nradov on Thursday September 07, 2017 @01:57AM (#15189429)
There's always a person making the decision and moving the funds. The Russian GRU isn't a sentient entity by itself. In principle those people can be held legally accountable, although it practice it's probably impossible.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by makomk on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:14PM (#15187574)
Well, it's important to bear in mind that most of these ads supposedly didn't back or attack a particular candidate, and that banning foreign funding of political and social activism of this kind would be a very Russian thing to do. Claiming they're foreign agents is one of the Russian government's favourite tactics for raiding and shutting down inconvenient political NGOs and activists. Frankly, I wouldn't entirely put it past them to fund these ads partly to bait out something they could use to justify their own domestic crackdowns and spin US criticism as hypocrasy.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by sigmar on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:43PM (#15187354)
My understanding is no, this is legal. But this would be illegal if a U.S. political campaign knew about and facilitated these ad buys, as then it would be a contribution. Source: https://transition.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml#Pro...
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by vkou on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:31PM (#15187286)
And, as a related question - should there be? What about a foreign corporation? A foreign corporation with a domestic presence? A domestic corporation? None of these groups are beholden to the public interest.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by pamqzl on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @05:33PM (#15187302)
Or just a foreign individual?

I'm a foreign individual who went around making comments on the US election... what's the difference between me doing it privately and a company doing it?

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:12PM (#15187561)
As much as America would like to think their laws apply across the globe, they don't actually have jurisdiction over you. There's nothing they can do to prevent you from talking about the campaign.

They do have jurisdiction over the candidate and campaign you endorse, though. If you contacted your candidate and offered them money or services in the hope that they could use your help to get elected, and they accepted your offer they would be guilty. You wouldn't be.

Unfortunately, it seems like a fairly impotent law if all you have to do as a foreign national with an interest in the election is to support a candidate without their endorsement.

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by dragonwriter on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @06:55PM (#15187805)
> As much as America would like to think their laws apply across the globe, they don't actually have jurisdiction over you.

You might want to check with Humberto Álvarez-Machaín (acquitted, sure, but not because the law didn't apply to him) or Manuel Noriega about that.

Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by tim333 on Thursday September 07, 2017 @08:27AM (#15191179)
Or Howard Marks in the book Mr Nice tells a bit about his thinking the US had no power over him and then, oops.
Re:Facebook says it sold political ads to Russian company du... by pamqzl on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @10:03PM (#15188632)
But I could, for instance, buy advertisements in support of my favoured candidate?

I guess not on US TV or US billboards since they're under the control of the US. But if I buy ads on the internet that just happen to be seen by US citizens there's nothing the US can do about it, right?