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Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by Jemaclus on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:48PM (#15180022)
I would second the option to negate some of these "values." There are about eight that I don't consider to be "values", but just to pick one of them at random, I don't consider "has good beer" to be a value I look for in a company. In fact, I consider a focus on alcohol in the workplace to be a red flag and would like the ability to filter out a place like that. In my experience, workplaces with alcohol in them tend to focus their work-related happy hours around drinking. As someone who does not drink, I often feel left out of those social activities, and am often actively shamed for not participating.

Some of the "values" are kind of ambiguous. How do you quantify "bonded by love of product"? What does that even mean? Doesn't everyone consider themselves "Creative + Innovative" and "Customer Comes First"? Would anyone advertise a company that doesn't have a "High Quality Codebase"?

I do like the overall idea of the site and the filtering mechanisms. I'm glad you're considering adding more "values" to the system, and hope you can add some more nuanced selection of those values (i.e., negation). You're approaching this from a tough but clever angle, and it'll be a lot of work to tweak it and get it right. Keep it up.

Also, site looks beautiful. Love the logo.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by badcodehere on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:05PM (#15180897)
> Would anyone advertise a company that doesn't have a "High Quality Codebase"?

I don't know about advertising (and this is a throwaway account) but when we interview candidates, we're clear that our code base has a lot of legacy code and the quality is a mixed bag. We're also clear that while most of our development team wants to improve it, it's a slow process and can only be done in ways that don't slow down feature development.

Developers who are obsessed with code quality have been a mixed bag for us. Several of our best developers are the people who care the most about quality code and push hardest to improve it. On the other hand, we've had people who seem to care a lot about quality, but have no feel for the cost/benefit ratio of any given change, and spend more time complaining about code than actually working on it. The ability to talk about what good code looks like doesn't necessarily translate into the ability to improve flawed code.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by john117-theline on Saturday September 09, 2017 @01:15PM (#15207984)
You have technical debt. It, by definition, slows down feature development by its very existence. But only of code that touches it in some manner.

I understand the imporantance of balancing business needs with 'clean code' but I think you're setting yourself up for unexpected costs with the mindset that code can only be cleaned up if features can still be delivered at the same speed. Are you doing it by fixing in the natural lulls in development? Hiring more people? Or perhaps by going beyond a 9-5?

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by lynnetye on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:22PM (#15180479)
I am a firm believer that saying what you are not can be more informative than saying what you are. So yes, the option to "negate" values is on the roadmap :)

Re: ambiguous "value tags", they're up for interpretation. I encourage you (and others) to read how different teams describe the same value and what it means to them. Also, there are several teams who didn't choose Creative + Innovative, Customer Comes First, and/or High Quality Codebase.

No company will "advertise" that they do not produce high quality, but we still learn something when high quality code isn't included in a team's top values. This is the beauty of limiting teams to 8 values :)

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by Jemaclus on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:30AM (#15181233)
Good points!
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by saghm on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:02PM (#15180882)
> In my experience, workplaces with alcohol in them tend to focus their work-related happy hours around drinking. As someone who does not drink, I often feel left out of those social activities, and am often actively shamed for not participating.

I also don't drink, and in my (relatively short) experience in the tech industry, the term "social event" almost exclusively refers to events where the primary focus is alcohol. Is this a tech-industry specific thing, or just a thing with "industry" in general?

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by LoSboccacc on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @02:37AM (#15181656)
It's an issue with mandatory fun time. I can totally see myself enjoying my time at a pub with some colleagues, but throw in the whole team plus managers/leaders and it's just four more hours of unwanted social interaction and work talk for which to survive the only focus become getting drunk as fast as possible to cut the losses.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by azernik on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:08PM (#15180910)
Definitely an issue in other industries (see e.g. law), but not in all industries.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by willsewell on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @03:54AM (#15181922)
I think what is often missed with values, is the "anti values". Often when I see a list of company values, it looks as if they can have their cake and eat it too. They are not explicit about the trade offs being made; e.g. "more perks (e.g. beer), lower salary". I think if it's hard to find one of these opposing anti-values, then it's not really an interesting choice to make, i.e. at worst it's probably a nice to have.

Last time we discussed our values at work, we thought about what we were trading off and this helped us decide whether they really were important to us.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by Jemaclus on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:04PM (#15184715)
That's an excellent perspective that I hadn't thought of before. How would you go about doing that? More beer doesn't necessarily correlate to lower salaries -- you might be trading off inclusiveness or safe work environment instead. Or if you have a flat organization that doesn't necessarily mean you have fewer meetings or more autonomy. How do you correlate a value with its anti-value? Or do you just say "We value these things, but we explicitly don't value these things"?
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by habitue on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:04PM (#15180380)
> Would anyone advertise a company that doesn't have a "High Quality Codebase"?

I think they can mitigate this by making the companies pick a limited number of "most important values". That way they're incentivized to make sure they mention all the things they're actually valuing, and leave out things that they don't actively prioritize (so you may think you have a high quality codebase, but if it isn't in the top 3-4 things you'd mention to a candidate, it's not a value of yours necessarily)

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by foota on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:36PM (#15180532)
The author mentions in a sibling comment that companies are limited to 8 values.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by balladeer on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @03:28AM (#15181831)
In fact things like - got beer, free food (it should be food is available, you can eat here or eat outside; I would rather want to get paid for that and have a choice), TT table, foosball etc are traps.

I wish I could find a similar list (that can be trusted to some extent) for my country (India) and all I would be looking for is - work-life balance.

I don't want to drink alcohol in office (if at all I am into alcohol). Instead of playing TT in office I would like to go for a swim, or a game of badminton, or a quite evening stroll.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by john117-theline on Saturday September 09, 2017 @01:18PM (#15208002)
To get me to play TT or foosball, they'd have to be in another location where no work is allowed to happen or even be discussed.

Bharatiya high five! I know exactly what you mean by the highest value being work-life balance. Please message me as well if you do find a place respectful to employees!

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by xenity7 on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:16AM (#15181177)
It's a little bit hard to capture in a survey, but the reality is you can't value everything. Values aren't a list of all the things you think are good, it's a list of the things you value "above replacement".

Even just talking about what values your company has is very instructive and revealing. Sure, few people say "we don't value maintainable code", but if you're putting together a list of your four or five core values and you're coming up with things like "speed of execution", "rapid iteration" and you don't put anything about mainainability, the reality is you don't value that.

You might not object to it, but it just isn't important to you - you don't value it.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by Jemaclus on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:34AM (#15181247)
Good point. I don't value flat organizations, but that doesn't mean my company has a hierarchy. You're definitely right.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by sanityUnbounded on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:46PM (#15180299)
This isn't related to the website but I also share the same sentiment towards alcohol in the workplace. It is amazing how a beverage can change an employees outlook on a company. On the company side though, it's an easy/inexpensive way to build culture.

People are strange.

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by peternicky on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:00PM (#15184675)
It's also a way to isolate team members who don't drink. You may think it's an "easy" way to build a team and yes perhaps that does hold true for some groups but overall, this attitude that having pseudorandom happy hours (in my opinion) flawed and is opposite of the current PC movement in the industry.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by john117-theline on Saturday September 09, 2017 @01:19PM (#15208011)
I wonder if it would be some consolation if they provided non-alcoholic tasty mocktails as well.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by aqme28 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:53PM (#15180859)
Love of product makes total sense to me.

Do the employees use the product? For some companies it's incredibly important, and for others it's a non-starter (usually B2C).

Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by Jemaclus on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @12:32AM (#15181242)
The value is called "bonded by love of product" not "Employees use product". I'm not really convinced that's what it means.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by flachsechs on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:07PM (#15180397)
just a second voice to add -- i do drink, but still don't appreciate alcohol in the workplace or cultures that are focused around after-work drinking. it's something i do with friends and family, not coworkers, and especially not my boss or subordinates.
Re:Show HN: Key Values – Find engineering teams that share y... by zippergz on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:38PM (#15180537)
I totally agree. I drink, just not with co-workers.