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Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Lerc on Monday September 04, 2017 @05:37PM (#15171014)
Aren't ICOs more of an altcoin phenomenon? How does this impact upon Bitcoin?

To me It looked like Bitcoin just bounced off a psychological ceiling at 5000USD. It has done this with various round number levels in the past. It makes a bit of sense if you consider people are inclined to think something like "I'll sell when it reaches $5000"

There also seems to be a tendancy to use evocative language (collapse,tumble,collapse etc.) to describe what has often been a loss of only a few weeks worth of gains. I guess when people have an agenda to push on the other side they call the same thing a correction.

I don't claim to have any special knowledge of how all this works. It just seems to me that many of the authoritative sounding voices are actually as clueless as the rest of us.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by ortusdux on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:46PM (#15171301)
This article from Business Insider has a better explanation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/initial-coin-offering-china-b...

Namely:

"However, the wording of the PBoC edict also suggested that trading and usage of all cryptocurrencies, including bitcoin, could now be illegal in China.

The PBoC said that virtual currencies that are "not issued by the monetary authorities... do not have legal status equivalent to money, and can not and should not be circulated as a currency in the market use."

The PBoC added that "any so-called tokens financing trading platform shall not engage in the exchange of legal currency and tokens." It even goes so far as to ban platforms from "provid[ing] pricing, information, [and] intermediary services.""

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Nursie on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @03:22AM (#15173133)
Now that is interesting, and potentially much farther reaching than the headlines have suggested
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by WhiteOwlLion on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:14PM (#15176591)
What does mean for AntMiner and people that sell the hardware for hashing power? SHA256 & scrypt hashers can't take cryptocurrency they are trying to mine with it? Not the end of the world, but ironic nonetheless.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by sillysaurus3 on Monday September 04, 2017 @05:46PM (#15171048)
It doesn't. The title is clickbait. Nobody knows why Bitcoin goes up and down, but people listen to whoever talks authoritatively on the subject.

China's announcement was probably a trigger that caused people to sell, rather than being directly responsible for people selling.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by rothbardrand on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:05PM (#15171113)
It does seem that consistently this year, every time Bitcoin hits an ATH or psychological price, that the PBOC issues some edict or warning that causes the price to drop. There's even a meme for this phenomena:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry6PpRXk0dQ

This is from 2014! (I know the link goes to content not typically found on HN, I'm doing it for the purposes of illustrating that this is such a seemingly common occurrence.)

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by sillysaurus3 on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:03PM (#15171378)
It's helpful to remember that BTC has had strong upwards pressure for several months now: http://imgur.com/IWwOgm9

A graph like that was going to correct, one way or the other. PBOC's decree seems incidental rather than the root cause.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by frutiger on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:02PM (#15171101)
> China's announcement was probably a trigger that caused people to sell, rather than being directly responsible for people selling.

So you're agreeing with the title - the announcement (directly or indirectly) is what caused the fall in price.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by lend000 on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:35PM (#15171503)
True, Bitcoin was already reversing before the announcement. However, NEO was definitely impacted by the news.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by modeless on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:28PM (#15171478)
People don't buy and sell ICO tokens with fiat, they do it with bitcoins. If a bunch of people want to sell their ICO tokens for fiat, they first end up with a bunch of bitcoins, and then they need to sell bitcoins for fiat. This pushes the price of bitcoins in fiat down.

It's a temporary phenomenon, but the price going down can make the price fall farther, because there are a bunch of amateur traders who think it's a good idea to buy when the price is rising and sell when it's falling.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Taek on Monday September 04, 2017 @09:19PM (#15171872)
Most ICOs actually trade Etherum, Bitcoin plays a role but it's usually secondary.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by atomical on Monday September 04, 2017 @09:48PM (#15171957)
Are you sure that's the case for non-US crypto startups? Also, there are some ERC20 tokens that have better liquidity with the BTC pairing.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by DennisP on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:09PM (#15172034)
It's true of almost all ICOs launching ERC20 tokens because on Ethereum you can write code that automatically turns your ETH into ERC20 tokens. A couple pages of code and it all just happens on the blockchain by itself.

If you take bitcoin contributions, you need something offchain to track who contributed what, and issue a bunch of minting transactions.

Some ICOs do that, but if it's ERC20 that's generally in addition to automated minting via smart contract, and since the token and ICO are running on the Ethereum blockchain it's predominantly ETH that gets contributed.

Liquidity on exchanges later doesn't have much to do with any of that.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by cslarson on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:47AM (#15173731)
Most SNT trading is against BTC on the Bittrex exchange. It's 5x the trading as against ETH.

https://coinmarketcap.com/assets/status/#markets

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by DennisP on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @10:38AM (#15175615)
You're talking about trading after the ICO, I'm talking about the ICO itself.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by rebuilder on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:36AM (#15172566)
To go from altcoins to fiat, one needs to first buy Bitcoin with altcoins, then sell Bitcoin for fiat. Why would this not be price neutral for Bitcoin?
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by zhte415 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:09AM (#15173809)
No. Because volumes at different price points, and spreads, differ. Not transitive.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by jgalt212 on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:29PM (#15172096)
> there are a bunch of amateur traders who think it's a good idea to buy when the price is rising and sell when it's falling.

professional traders and asset managers do this exact same thing.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by astrange on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:25AM (#15173628)
That's called momentum trading and it's not a bad idea in a market where most traders aren't setting a price… aka, all public markets especially this one. Who needs fundamentals?
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by davidgerard on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:05AM (#15173538)
There's weird stuff going on with Tethers, which are supposedly pegged to the dollar and fully backed, being created apparently out of nothing when Tether has no US banking arrangements, and these being used to prop up margin trading on Bitfinex. The price then goes up on Bitfinex, then on other exchanges.

The upshot is: every time margin gets too deep on Bitfinex, another batch of Tethers is created out of thin air, and the price gets a pump. Bitcoin's recapitulated the history of finance, and now it's got to Quantitative Easing.

It's amazingly tangled, I'm trying to put together an explainer blog post, but Bitfinexed has the best coverage of the pieces:

https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed

https://medium.com/@bitfinexed/

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by xg15 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:35AM (#15173670)
> ... which are supposedly pegged to the dollar and fully backed, being created apparently out of nothing ...

Amateur here, but how is that not a contradiction?

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Khoth on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:02AM (#15174320)
"supposedly fully backed" isn't the same as "actually fully backed". If they are being created out of thin air, it would mean the claim about them being backed by dollars was a lie.

Edit: Although, whether or not they're backed by anything isn't really all that relevant, considering that their terms of service[1] say: "There is no contractual right or other right or legal claim against us to redeem or exchange your Tethers for money. We do not guarantee any right of redemption or exchange of Tethers by us for money."

So backed or not, nobody has any obligation to give you dollars in exchange for your tethers.

[1] https://tether.to/legal/

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by oculusthrift on Monday September 04, 2017 @06:22PM (#15171209)
If any other asset lost that much percent of its value that fast it'd be called a crash too. It isn't biased. It isn't the writer's fault that BTC is so volatile. Isn't it at least a little concerning that it could gain or lose that much value in a matter of weeks?
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by tinco on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:23AM (#15173369)
It already gained that much value in a week so effectively nothing happened. The technical traders might believe we've hit a big ceiling, but ceilings could be just temporary. The article is mentioning bitcoin price just for drama.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Vadoff on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:09PM (#15171398)
The price of bitcoin was correcting many hours before any news of the China ICO restriction. So yeah probably completely BS correlation.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by vkou on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @02:54AM (#15173035)
Or, more likely, informed insiders capitalized on this information.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Cybourgeoisie on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @08:12AM (#15174370)
While I'm inclined to believe this, the big sell off triggered by this news started at the same time that the news was made public. You can view the rapid drop in Neo (heavily affected by the ban) started in the same 15 minutes when the news broke.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by CryptoPunk on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:26PM (#15171472)
>>Aren't ICOs more of an altcoin phenomenon?

ICOs are an Ethereum phenomenon. Ethereum isn't a fork of Bitcoin's codebase and thus isn't an altcoin.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by kobeya on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:40PM (#15171746)
It is an alternative coin. Hence "altcoin."
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by atomical on Monday September 04, 2017 @09:50PM (#15171969)
I think of blockchain currency as coins and currency issued by a blockchain as tokens (i.e. ERC20).
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by tylersmith on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:46PM (#15172159)
There's no fundamental difference. Currently there are implementation differences but those will go away. Eventually Ether will be ERC20 compliant.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by AgentME on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:57PM (#15172194)
>Eventually Ether will be ERC20 compliant.

Citation?

Ether is privileged on Ethereum. It's what mining gets you, it's what transaction fees are paid in, if proof-of-stake comes around, it will be what's staked, and any transaction can include some. I don't expect any of these to change.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by cslarson on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:54AM (#15173748)
I think the reference is EIP 101: Crypto Abstraction which is planned for the Serenity release.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/28

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by AgentME on Thursday September 07, 2017 @06:50PM (#15196522)
Thanks, that's interesting. I take back some of my incredulity from my previous post!
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by decentralised on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:53AM (#15173969)
No because it is based on a different generation of the blockchain design. The same way that iOS is not an alt-blackberry.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by fastball on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:45PM (#15171766)
Altcoin hasn't referred to Bitcoin forks in years.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by CryptoPunk on Monday September 04, 2017 @08:54PM (#15171798)
I've seen the term fall out of usage. Years ago, when Bitcoin made up 90% of the cryptocurrency market cap, and nearly every other cryptocurrency was a fork of Bitcoin, with a name that was some variation of *coin (e.g. Litecoin, Peercoin, Dogecoin, Novacoin, BBQcoin) it made sense. Not so much now anymore, with Bitcoin's market cap under 50%, and original projects being its major competitors.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by lawless123 on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:32AM (#15173660)
Market cap is a poor way to measure each coin. You can create your own coin premine 1 million of them. Sell a few for ~5 dollars and claim it has a market cap of 5 million dollars.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by CryptoPunk on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @11:06AM (#15175918)
Market cap can be a totally valid way to measure total worth. In the case of a cryptocurrency with a large circulating and trading volume, like Ether, it's a reliable measure of total value.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by sgtnasty on Monday September 04, 2017 @07:20PM (#15171443)
What is an ICO?
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Iv on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:37AM (#15172571)
A new way to fund companies. Instead of selling parts, issue tokens that work like a cryptocurrency and promise they will entitle to some profits. Sell these for bitcoins. Recently some companies raised a billion USD that way (yes, billion)

The concern, that I share, is that this system is very vulnerable to Ponzi scheme. And unlike Bitcoin, the crash of the pyramid is not a feature in this system.

I think people are right to warn and forbid this thing. Pyramid scheme can have large-scale effect in an economy.

I think etherum provides way to do things more responsibly but I understand that authorities moved quickly when they saw anonymous companies with no products receiving a billion USD.

Even that will cause ripples when it collapses. You don't want it to grow more.

Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by Gaelan on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @12:32AM (#15172547)
Essentially, selling some amount of your cryptocurrency to your investors before you launch.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by freyir on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @01:35AM (#15172756)
It's an Initial Coin Offering, a unregulated way for a company to raise funds, but which has also been associated with scams and Ponzi schemes recently.
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by davidgerard on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:07AM (#15173553)
Magic beans from bubble machines. People buying tokens that are literally defined as being worthless, and trading them on exchanges as fast as possible. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/icos-magic-beans-and-bu...
Re:Bitcoin Tumbles as PBOC Declares Initial Coin Offerings I... by prawn on Monday September 04, 2017 @10:06PM (#15172029)
Initial Coin Offering. An unregulated fundraising method.