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Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by damnfine on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:02AM (#15080724)
The Socratic Method is one of persuasion, not discussion. The effort is to guide the person to your idea, on their own, so to speak. This is a poor method of actual discussion. In essence, you become the opinionated one.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by YCode on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:51AM (#15081510)
Seems like a bit of projection here... The method isn't intrinsically persuasive.

It's often used to find the root of a problem or set of values when the questioner doesn't know the issue with enough precision to fairly discuss it with the subject.

And most of the time the theoretical "goal" is to examine a belief or potentially invoke doubt on a belief previously considered solid rather than reach any conclusion.

Anecdotally I recently fell into this line of discussion with an anti-vaxer friend of mine. Instead of trying to persuade him he's wrong I asked questions about his beliefs and asked him to justify his decisions. Questions like "You were vaccinated, did that negatively impact you?" or "Do you worry about your children getting those sicknesses?"

Questions meant to clarify or examine, not persuade. In the end neither of us changed our positions on the topic, but if we're honest that was never on the table.

At least now I have a clearer understanding of his perspective and he was willing to share some of the more vulnerable details of his beliefs that he wouldn't have admitted had I come at him persuasively.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by dsacco on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:21AM (#15081283)
I disagree. I very often use the Socratic method, or elements of it, when I don't know much about a topic and want to passively challenge the other party's ideas without trying to convince them of an opposing view point.

I do this in person and in online forums like this one. I'm not trying to guide someone to my own conclusion, and I might not have enough information to have an educated opinion, or I might be ambivalent about the subject. It takes the form of me asking for clarification in a non-antagonistic fashion.

I would say I most often use this strategy to force people to justify their own opinions to me when I have no opinion at all. I even do this to people I agree with.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @12:14PM (#15082725)
Fantastic, this was the whole point of my post, to promote this type of approach, especially at work.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by cJ0th on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:31AM (#15081355)
> This is a poor method of actual discussion. In essence, you become the opinionated one.

Exactly. And this becomes very clear in the video. The interviewer harps on about the "reliability of faith" without really listening to what Antony is saying. Different people who are having different faiths but still believe in the same thing is only illogical if you wish to see it like that. All programs in your computer, for instance, can safely assume that memory does exist. There is no point for a program to find out whether something like memory is real. I am not talking about finding out whether space is left etc. I am merely saying that a piece of software does not need a science library to investigate the existence of memory. Sure, sometimes you don't receive something from memory when you need it, sometimes bad things happen when you work with the bits it gives you and so on. But questioning the existence of memory is besides the point.

Now lets imagine another program which also "believes" in the existance of memory The user uses this program to remove the other program. In other words, two programs who have the same "faith" kill each other. This is not a contradiction.

Someone should do the Socrates on him to elicit why "reliability" is something one has to discuss when it comes to faith. I am pretty sure his answers would also be contradictory within a short amount of time.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by m_mueller on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @10:05AM (#15081620)
I think you're concentrating on the wrong word - reliability. That doesn't seem the central assumption of Anthony here, it's just an attribute to arrive at the central assumption: That there is a universal truth, i.e we all live in the same world, only our models of that world are different (i.e. subjective).
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by cJ0th on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @10:21AM (#15081721)
> That doesn't seem the central assumption of Anthony here,

Yes, that's my point. It's the interviewer who has this idea that faith should be reliable and that's what I was questioning. Or did you mean the interviewer (Anthony with an h) ? I am a bit confused right now..

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by m_mueller on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @07:01PM (#15085962)
Yes I mean the interviewer. Your critique of is argument is based on his use of reliability - I find that tangential. His main assumption is that of a universal truth - faith being unreliable is just what follows. So are you saying that there is no universal truth or that faith is somehow exempt from the search for truth?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by Panoramix on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @10:49AM (#15081912)
You say:

1) Person A: I hold a belief for which there is no proof or rational support. I just have faith in it.

2) Person B: I too hold such a set of beliefs. Mine are different than yours and they even compel me to kill you.

What interviewer meant is that this method of thinking arrives at vastly different, even conflicting views, hence it is inconsistent and unreliable.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:40AM (#15081418)
From Wikipedia: "The Socratic method [...] or Socratic debate, is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presumptions"

It seems that it is a method for discussing ideas.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by pgeorgi on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:56AM (#15081544)
> A method for discussing ideas.

... when done on a level playing field. That's not what usually happens when people want to deal with "an opinionated colleague, manager or even a relative" (as the OP suggests).

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @12:07PM (#15082647)
I do use Socratic questions when discussing with colleagues, family and friends. It minimizes conflict and it helps reach agreement faster than any other method
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by wu-ikkyu on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:19AM (#15081271)
Why do you think the socratic method cannot be used for a means of discussion and learning for both parties?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by booleandilemma on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:22AM (#15081287)
I can't tell if you're using the socratic method or not.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by elcapitan on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:46AM (#15081036)
Agree. It's not a method of equal-level discussion, it's a method of teaching.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @12:18PM (#15082756)
It is a method for examining believes or ideas, either you or the other person can learn things over the process, a thing that is great.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by smokeyj on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:48AM (#15081045)
And the point of discussion is..?

I like the method because you can learn why people believe something along the way. Sometimes you might even change your own view based on their reasoning.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by onion2k on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:53AM (#15081087)
And the point of discussion is..?

To discover what others think, know, or believe; not to change their mind.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by terheyden on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:59AM (#15081127)
Why do you think Socrates himself used this method?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by hbarka on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:58AM (#15081122)
Was it mentioned that the intent is to have the other change their mind?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by zsd on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:16AM (#15081254)
Should it have been?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by hbarka on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @10:10AM (#15081656)
Is expecting what it should be part of the Socratic method?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:37AM (#15081398)
The point is that people do lower their level of confidence when they cannot prove their claims.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by smokeyj on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @12:19PM (#15082768)
And this is exactly what the method accomplishes! Might as well call it verbal debugging.
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by miguelrochefort on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @08:58AM (#15081124)
What's the difference?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by mathgeek on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:15AM (#15081244)
Grab a dictionary and look up "discussion", then look up "argument".
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by jasonkostempski on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:27AM (#15081328)
Discussion: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate.

Argument: the act or process of arguing, reasoning, or discussing.

Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by miguelrochefort on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @10:27AM (#15081764)
So, no difference?
Re:Show HN: How to discuss with opinionated people using the... by xchip on Wednesday August 23, 2017 @09:35AM (#15081390)
Exactly, that is what makes the method great, because it could be us holding the wrong belief and this helps us learn too.