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Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by zjaffee on Friday August 18, 2017 @05:21PM (#15049825)
Your ignoring the fact that up until recently, pain was considered to be the fifth vital sign and was just as important to treat as things like a fever.

Medicine as a field is largely about removing discomfort, as many medical conditions could be relatively debilitating. Think how many times taking an ibuprofen/acetaminophen just made it possible for you to go on with your day, rather than needing to lay in bed in agony. For people with chronic pain, or those coming out of surgery, perceived recovery time can be a big thing for people.

Additionally, the article didn't address the fact that it could very well be that doctors were being paid off to prescribe a particular brand of opioid rather than just opioids in general, something that is relatively common when there are a large number of drugs that can equally help treat a given ailment.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by csr12928834 on Friday August 18, 2017 @06:49PM (#15050357)
The problem in my mind, that the parent is intimating at, is that we confer far too much control to and assume far too much competence and beneficence on the part of physicians.

I am not saying they are a corrupt class, nor would I mean to imply that. But I do think we need to think of physicians as a part of health care, rather than at the top of it.

The entire drug regulation system is predicated on the idea that you have certain providers, namely physicians, who are competent to make decisions, and shifting that decision-making power to those providers protects us from harm.

The opioid crisis has demonstrated that whole paradigm is faulty.

The problem is that no one profession should be entrusted with that level of power or command over decisions.

Imagine, instead, a system where there was no drug regulation. Rather than assuming that physicians were making the best decisions about opioid use and sweeping the problem under the rug, such use would be constantly scrutinized.

We need more competition, and fewer gatekeepers. Gatekeeping means there's only one thing that needs to be breached.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by frankydp on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:46PM (#15050621)
Aren't there multiple groups that provide the guidelines for treatment? Specifically all of the specialty associations. (Gastro, Oncology...)

Going outside recommended guidelines can be very very expensive for a physician.

The understanding of opioid use has clinically changed drastically in the last 40 years, similar to SSRIs in the last 70 years.

Not that I do not agree with your premise, but the issue seems to be much more institutional and related to human, research, and implementation error than a bunch of individual bad actors.

https://www.guideline.gov/

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by davidmr on Saturday August 19, 2017 @12:09AM (#15051618)
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Is it your contention that, if anyone could get opiates without any regulation or prescription, fewer people would take them than they do now? Why would scrutiny of any kind by anyone lead to reduced usage in a case like this if that scrutiny had no regulatory effect on who could obtain narcotic painkillers?

I understand (though disagree with) the libertarian philosophy that you should be free to take anything you please, but I fail to see how such a situation would lead to decreased use.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by lr4444lr on Friday August 18, 2017 @05:35PM (#15049925)
I think you're raising an interesting point, but I disagree with your example - what pain that is so bad its sufferer needs "to lay in bed in agony" can be relieved by ibuprofen, acetaminophen, or any other OTC pain reliever? The Great Binge[0] ended long ago - perhaps for the wrong reasons, but ended nonetheless, until recently when legal opioid prescriptions spiked.

This is about doctors putting their patients at risk in the process of treating them for routine problems which did not result in opioid addiction rates as recently as 25 years ago, and certainly were not prescribed with any other side benefit as far as I've heard.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Binge

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by mnm1 on Friday August 18, 2017 @05:51PM (#15050040)
Headaches can easily be that bad and relieved with ibuprofen. Otherwise yeah, it's lay in bed and try to sleep and hope they don't last into the next day.
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by abakker on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:25PM (#15050528)
Or, sometimes, they're not. My wife gets bad migraines. For the most part, nothing works.

She has not tried, and is not interested in trying opioids for them, though.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by GordonS on Saturday August 19, 2017 @02:58AM (#15052081)
She should try sumatriptan. Works amazingly well for me.
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by stephengillie on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:56PM (#15050656)
Tangental - having never heard of The Great Binge described before, it's interesting to note the time period begins just at the end of the Opium Wars. Almost as though it was just a shifting of focus.
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by curun1r on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:02PM (#15050420)
> Think how many times taking an ibuprofen/acetaminophen just made it possible for you to go on with your day...

I used to think like that. But since starting meditation practice, I've come to experience pain very differently from the way that I did before. And I've come to realize that only around 10% of pain is physical. The rest is mental...it's how your mind responds to the 10% physical pain. If I react with equanimity...distancing myself from the pain and just observing it rather than feeling it, it all but goes away.

I have more chronic pain than I've ever had and, yet, I haven't taken a single pain killer in the past 3 years. I want to believe that somehow my pain is less than everyone who's getting caught in the net of opioids and that they do really need pharmaceutical help to deal with their pain, but my experience leads me to believe otherwise...that much of their need for drug help comes from their mental state and the unproductive way they accept pain into their lives. I also can't help but wonder whether today's increasingly disconnected society leads people to seek connection with a substance rather than other people. Would we still have an opioid epidemic if people spent more time having in-person conversations and less time liking things on Facebook?

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by emiliobumachar on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:11PM (#15050467)
Good for you, but, even if - if!- meditation would work for everyone,it's unrealistic to expect everyone to start meditating.

Exercise is good for virtually everyone, and that's common knowledge. Yet relatively few go through the trouble.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by curun1r on Friday August 18, 2017 @07:38PM (#15050586)
I'm not saying that everyone should meditate. I'm only bringing it up because I think it sheds a light on the true nature of pain and why simply removing it with chemicals at all costs is a very dangerous thing to be doing. We need to better understand that nature of pain and understand how to deal with it both physiologically and psychologically rather than taking the naive approach using chemicals, because a mind-body solution will be so much more successful than one that only considers one side of the equation.
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by icelancer on Saturday August 19, 2017 @01:15AM (#15051810)
>We need to better understand that nature of pain

Pain science is a very well-researched field that gets plenty of funding and is worked on by some of the best scientists and doctors in the world who have no corrupt agenda.

There is no conspiracy. Just doctors over-prescribing opioids, patients lying to get them, and a few very corrupt "pain management" shops - primarily in Florida - handing them out like candy.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by senorjazz on Saturday August 19, 2017 @08:56AM (#15053094)
>There is no conspiracy. Just doctors over-prescribing opioids, patients lying to get them, and a few very corrupt "pain management" shops - primarily in Florida - handing them out like candy.

I would say the root problem goes far deeper. Big pharma make big politic donations which buys the ability to do this. Big pharma heavily pushed these onto Drs. Big pharma lied about the addiction potential. Big pharma fudged the facts.

I am not 100% sure of the governmental process to get moving, but their is political oversight and they have been negligent for decades, but as government bodies > big corporations seem to have a personnel revolving door, no one wants to rock the boat and lose the chance of landing a high paying job later down the line.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by chillwaves on Saturday August 19, 2017 @08:49AM (#15053069)
What about pharma that lies about the addiction potential? With billions $ on the line?

That is a reality you did not include.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by curun1r on Saturday August 19, 2017 @12:11PM (#15054122)
> Pain science is a very well-researched field that gets plenty of funding and is worked on by some of the best scientists and doctors in the world who have no corrupt agenda.

Perhaps, but there is a fundamental problem with a purely scientific approach to a problem like this.

Science has a measurement problem when it comes to pain. You can take an entirely disciplined approach to studying the problem but there is no way to measure pain that isn't subjective on the part of the patient. There's no way to separate actual pain from psychosomatic pain, no matter how good the scientists and doctors are or how non-corrupted their agendas. It's only when you start to realize that pain is primarily a mental illness, not a physical one, that can even begin to understand it. And that's a conclusion that is very difficult to reach from a purely scientific perspective, especially since you can cause pain so easily through physiological means. I've only been able to arrive at that point through my own subjective experience in seeing just how effective an approach based on disciplined thought can be.

You know what's also a very well-researched field that gets plenty of funding and is worked on by some of the best scientists and doctors in the world? Depression. And, like pain, depression is a condition that can only be measured subjectively by the patient. Scientists can (and have) deluded themselves into thinking they're measuring it more accurately, with fMRI scans and other non-subjective physiological responses, but it's just as likely they're measuring second-order responses in the brain rather than the primary symptoms.

And, like pain killers, those doctors and scientists largely favored an approach using medication, since that approach is most amenable to being studied scientifically. But what's been realized in the past decade is that medication is no more effective than mindfulness practice, despite having significantly more side effects. And, even more recently, there's now pretty good evidence that depression may not even be a problem of the mind and, instead, may be primarily a problem in a patient's gut bacteria. Scientists, in their belief that everything mental originates in the brain, have very possibly misunderstood for decades the basic nature of the problem they were studying.

Science isn't magic. It's a way of refining our thinking on a subject, but it doesn't automatically arrive at correct conclusions when those conclusions are difficult to conceive. My personal experience with pain leads me to believe this is one of these situations. It's no knock against scientists, but given the damage that we're seeing from the side effects of pain medications, I do believe it's long past time to expand the scope of the problem they're studying.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by senorjazz on Saturday August 19, 2017 @08:51AM (#15053078)
>. For people with chronic pain, or those coming out of surgery, perceived recovery time can be a big thing for people

Chronic / serious pain yes. I read that 1/3 of people in the US are on (or perhaps have taken?) an opiod prescribed pain killer. If true, that is insane! That is not chronic pain.

* Drs have over prescribed opiate based painkillers. Fact. * Big Pharma corporations have pushed opiate painkillers recklessly. Fact * Profits became more important than the health of the customers/(patients). Fact

This has caused the death of 1000s. Yet no one actually responsible will be held accountable. Sure some Drs will lose their license, but the real guilty parties are further up the tree and will be untouchable.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the American way.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by Spivak on Saturday August 19, 2017 @10:28AM (#15053542)
If the metric is 'has ever taken' then I would believe that number is low. Most people will get opioids after they get their wisdom teeth out.
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by hvo on Saturday August 19, 2017 @11:27AM (#15053904)
Big Pharma companies are the problem of US health care crisis. They have figured out ways to manipulate the doctors and the patients for gains.

If you are a drug addict,there is a pill for that.

If there are side-effects to the pill you are taking to get you off addiction,there is a pill for that.

And if you take too much pills,there is a pill for that one too.

Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by rossjudson on Friday August 18, 2017 @06:31PM (#15050267)
As if "taking a kickback to promote a particular pharmaceutical company's products" isn't equally bad. Yeah -- BigPharma is going to account for the kickback under "Research and Development (Of Profit)".
Re:Opioid makers made payments to one in 12 U.S. doctors by martinald on Saturday August 19, 2017 @12:26AM (#15051669)
Let's also keep in mind that as recently as the 1970s doctors in the US often did not prescribe opioid medication, whatsoever. In some cases, even for terminally ill patients.

I think this made fertile ground for huge swing back that pharma got from prescribing it. The situation of such massive underprescribing allowed massive overprescribing, in a way.