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Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by jmcgough on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:33PM (#15029423)
P!=NP seems to be the general sentiment, though we're still waiting on the proof :)
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by tachyonbeam on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:57PM (#15029611)
I share the same sentiment, but I think it could be that P!=NP is an unprovable statement. Could be that there's something fundamental about the nature of computing which makes it impossible to prove or disprove it.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by DonbunEf7 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:45PM (#15030028)
I used to think this, too, but Aaronson changed my mind with the observation in [0] that, if P != NP is independent, then it would necessarily imply a lot of what we would demand from a constructive P = NP proof. In particular, we could get some pretty hilarious improvements on those exponents in NP-complete algorithms, to the point where they become tractable for day-to-day computing.

There is a sense in which any complexity class which is self-low is "physical", or analogous to machines which we might build by hand with modular designs. A self-low class doesn't gain any additional power when relativized with itself as an oracle, and this directly corresponds to building a physical machine out of smaller machine modules.

We know that P is self-low. It seems that the universe insists that either we are able to build machines which tractably solve NP-complete problems, or not, but there is no in-between position.

[0] http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/pnp.pdf p28

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by emmab on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:16PM (#15029800)
Something is only unprovable wrt an axiom set.

You can add new axioms to an existing axiom set that can be semi-decidably proved inconsistent given the rest of the axiom set.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_cardinal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_...

For a theory of how to choose an axiom set probabilistically, see: https://intelligence.org/2016/09/12/new-paper-logical-induct...

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by Houshalter on Thursday August 17, 2017 @01:12AM (#15033965)
You can't just add arbitrary axioms. It's entirely possible to have a statement that's unprovable with any axioms mathematicians would consider reasonable.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by emmab on Saturday August 19, 2017 @02:55AM (#15052073)
An axiom can be wrong wrt the standard model for some first-order theory: http://lesswrong.com/lw/g0i/standard_and_nonstandard_numbers...

But, demonstrating an axiom is inconsistent with the standard model of peano arithmetic or ZFC is in the general case uncomputable.

For example, an axiom that claims some program halts when it does not actually halt cannot in general be proved to be inconsistent wrt the standard model, because otherwise one could decide the halting problem.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by rlanday on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @06:01PM (#15031748)
There are many, many things that are most likely provable that have not been proven yet. Fermat's Last Theorem went 358 years before it was finally proven. Theoretical computer science is a very young field by comparison.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by Houshalter on Thursday August 17, 2017 @01:15AM (#15033976)
Years is a bad measure to use. The number of mathematicians has grown exponentially over the last 400 years. Both because of population growth and the Flynn effect, and because our society is a lot richer and we spend more on mathematical research.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by rlanday on Thursday August 17, 2017 @01:37PM (#15038943)
On the other hand, can nine women have a baby in a month?
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by CJefferson on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:24PM (#15031048)
I don't think it's impossible to prove, I think we just aren't yet good at proving it.

One reason I believe P!=NP is I can imagine what a proof of P=NP would look like -- just write a C program that solves SAT or Sudoku or something, in polynomial time, and prove it's correctness and execution time. There are tens of thousands of papers which do that, for various problems.

I can't really imagine what a proof of P!=NP would look like, proving something doesn't exist is extremely hard, particularly because for any particular instance of an NP problem, there is a problem which solves it "by luck".

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by chx on Thursday August 17, 2017 @01:09AM (#15033955)
Even if it'll be a constructive proof, it doesn't mean you could actually write the C program. It'll be like, here are the steps to construct an algorithm for this NP complete problem and then the number of steps itself is bound by n^(absurdly large number) and then prove the complexity is bound by n^(another absurdly large number). It will have zero practical consequences.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by sacheendra on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:12PM (#15029745)
Maybe that could be a thing to prove.

Is it possible to prove that something is not provable?

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by emmab on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:19PM (#15029823)
> Is it possible to prove that something is not provable?

It's possible to prove that something is not provable within some axiom set. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statements_independent...

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by infogulch on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:20PM (#15029834)
In general yes. [1] I don't know about PvNP

[1]: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2027182/how-do-we-p...

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by jlebar on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:15PM (#15029792)
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by auggierose on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @03:32PM (#15030455)
Yep. That's what Gödel did.
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by sjg007 on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:23PM (#15029866)
What if it is not computable?
Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by tgflynn on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @02:57PM (#15030137)
I don't see how it could be unprovable.

As far as I know the only way a theorem can be unprovable is if it makes statements involving infinity.

You can reduce P vs NP to a question involving only finite sets by choosing some finite n, which can be arbitrarily large. It should be large enough so that the asymptotic behavior of any algorithm would dominate at n.

Instead of asking about the scaling behavior of an algorithm as n approaches infinity you now ask about its scaling up to the finite value n.

This is now a question about a finite set which has a definite answer which could, in principle, be determined by enumerating all possible algorithms (represented, for example, by boolean circuits with some large size bound) for a particular NP complete problem for problem sizes up to n. Of course this would probably take many times the lifetime of the universe to actually do, but it could be done in principle. So the question of how the minimum circuit size which solves an NP complete problem scales with n has a definite answer.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by ColinWright on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:10PM (#15030881)
> I don't see how it could be unprovable.

It's quite plausible that it's unprovable, although you would have to be specific about the axiom system you're using.

> As far as I know the only way a theorem can be unprovable is if it makes statements involving infinity.

It does.

> You can reduce P vs NP to a question involving only finite sets by choosing some finite n, which can be arbitrarily large. It should be large enough so that the asymptotic behavior of any algorithm would dominate at n.

No, you can't. You don't know how large that n has to be, so you have to prove it for arbitrarily large n, and that's the "infinity" that you're dismissing.

> Instead of asking about the scaling behavior of an algorithm as n approaches infinity you now ask about its scaling up to the finite value n.

So you've changed the question to one that can be proven. The original question might still be unprovable.

So I don't see how your comment really makes any sense at all. Perhaps you could be a little more precise.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by tgflynn on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:41PM (#15031195)
Say you let n be a number equal to all of the memory bits that currently exist on Earth then showed that the size of the smallest boolean circuit solving 3SAT for variable counts near n scaled as 2^n.

That would essentially be enough to convince me that P != NP.

It would be true for all practical purposes. In fact I would find the above information more interesting than the actual asymptotic behavior as n -> infinity.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by ColinWright on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @05:36PM (#15031588)
You're talking about something completely different. If you don't care about asymptotic behavior that's one thing, but you do need to recognise that you're talking about something different, and unless you are really clear and really precise you won't be able to communicate effectively with other people, even if what you say is relevant and important.

But bottom line is that you're talking about something different.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by pavel_lishin on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @05:18PM (#15031458)
> It would be true for all practical purposes.

But that's not how mathematical proofs work.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by contravariant on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @04:10PM (#15030880)
>enumerating all possible algorithms [...] for problem sizes up to n.

Please keep in mind that this includes an algorithm that has precomputed all possible solutions and retrieves their value from a list.

In fact I find it hard to say for certain that you can't for instance assume the existence of an algorithm that calculates the answers to some NP problem in constant time, but which takes an amount of time that can't be proven to be smaller than any other number. This would lead to a situation where P != NP may not be provable.

Re:On Norbert Blum’s claimed proof that P does not equal NP by mixedmath on Thursday August 17, 2017 @06:53PM (#15041812)
I think it's interesting that Knuth came to believe that P=NP. See question 17 and its response in this interview with him [1].

[1]: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2213858