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Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by djsumdog on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:01PM (#15013406)
It gets into the incredibly murky water of how the web works. You're just issuing a request and getting things back. Sometimes in a web browser, sometimes not. But the content itself may still be copyright. You can't just take it, even though for now, the publisher/server is allowing you to view it for free.

But what if you only chose to view some of the content (e.g. block ads). What if you apply your own styles to change the way that information is displayed? You're just changing the way the browser represents that data. You're not redistributing it as your own at this point. What if you store that data, but don't republish it; just used it in some each algorithms?

There are a whole lot of interesting grey areas here, but many that already have precedents that side more with the copyright holders.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by moojah on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:44PM (#15013701)
The interesting part here is that linkedin doesn't hold any copyright on much of the data. You cannot copyright someones name and title.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by unepipe on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:07PM (#15013838)
But you can copyright a database.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by simcop2387 on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:40PM (#15014039)
that one is iffy, http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/types-databases-eligi...

I'd suspect LinkedIn could argue about the network they create is a creative work and would be covered, but the facts about each person might not be copyright-able.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by ekianjo on Monday August 14, 2017 @09:19PM (#15014572)
whats inside the database is not owned by them.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by swiley on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:18PM (#15013529)
Maybe the whole idea of copyright is flawed and harmful?
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by bitJericho on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:42PM (#15013688)
There's nothing wrong with copyrights; 14 year copyrights.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by int_19h on Tuesday August 15, 2017 @03:34AM (#15016227)
Why 14, though?

I'm well aware of the historical precedent, but that number was rather arbitrary even then - it was what a bunch of people agreed upon, based on their ideas and experience, and given the environment. It's doubly arbitrary today, considering how much the environment has changed. Is a 14-year copyright on software reasonable, for example, or too long.

Rather than making it a hard cut-off point, it would be interesting to come up with a scheme that attempts to capture the spirit of term limits.

Consider: why are copyright terms even a thing? Well, copyright is a monopoly on a thing that is not naturally restricted; it does not exist in the absence of society, and is therefore a privilege granted by that society. By itself, copyright is meant to encourage creativity in the interest of public good, and at the same time, to provide some means to derive profit from one's creative expression. So there are two conflicting interests at play here - the desire of the creator to be rewarded for the fruits of his labor, and the desire of the society to enjoy growing, constantly enriched culture. The copyright term, then, marks the point at which the latter trumps the former.

Instead, what we could do is capture the fact that the interests conflict. For as long as you hold copyright, you're effectively denying society the ability to freely enjoy the culture that you have enriched. Why, then, not tax the copyright accordingly? You could consider it a kind of intellectual property tax, but with a twist: the longer copyright is held, the more the interests of society are infringed, and the larger the compensatory payment required to maintain the copyright.

So we could start with a grace period of a couple of years that is completely free, then it starts growing steadily. For some really popular work that makes significant profits, the author could easily afford payments to maintain copyright for a decade or two (or however long - that is something that can be dialed arbitrarily). For things that are too obscure, payments would cease shortly, and they would fall to public domain. There wouldn't be such a thing as "abandonware" anymore.

What use to put the money to? Many possibilities there. Publicly sponsored arts and art education is an obvious choice. Another interesting example would be offering bulk sums of money to authors of culturally important works to surrender their copyrights sooner, so that the public can enjoy them.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by dvdhnt on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:25PM (#15015146)
I'd love to see more debate about just this.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by jlarocco on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:24PM (#15013934)
> It gets into the incredibly murky water of how the web works.

There's no "murky water" in how the web works. It's very clear and precise, and anybody can learn how it works. It has to be precise and well defined, because computers can't operate any other way.

If Linkedin doesn't want "public" profile data to be accessible to everybody then they need to stop calling it public and put it behind some kind of access control.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by avip on Monday August 14, 2017 @09:03PM (#15014492)
But that's exactly what LI did, then came a judge and ordered them (temporarily) to remove said access controls.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by flashman on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:54PM (#15014133)
Computers are also operating with absolute clarity and precision when somebody exploits a flaw in their software to execute arbitrary code. That's why the CFAA has its language around 'exceeding authorized access' (even though it turns out that definition is dangerously vague).
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by sliverstorm on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:52PM (#15013749)
I think most of those "grey areas" already have plenty of precedent in the world of art & music. Have you heard of "fair use", and what it allows and does not?
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by revelation on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:20PM (#15013547)
There is no grey area. You can not copyright facts. If you download ("scrape") a webpage and then extract the facts, whatever you downloaded only exists in volatile memory. So there is no claim there. The only claim you can make is on the download itself, hence what LinkedIn chose.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by onion2k on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:25PM (#15013584)
I've seen plenty of LinkedIn profiles that could be classified as fiction.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by wvenable on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:37PM (#15014023)
But LinkedIn isn't the owner of that fiction.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by tyingq on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:45PM (#15013712)
It's possible that HiQ is downloading and processing things that aren't facts. Long passages of text in LinkedIn posts, recommendations, and comments aren't "facts".

Though that doesn't appear to be the path LinkedIn is using to fight it.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by revelation on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:51PM (#15013740)
Copyright isn't thoughtcrime, if they aren't redistributing it to anyone with standing to sue (very likely not LinkedIn, no matter their ToS) they can process things all day.
Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by tyingq on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:57PM (#15013785)
I did not say or imply "thoughtcrime". Just noting it can be more complex. Sentiment analysis of copyrighted text passages might be claimed as being a derivitive work for example. Fair use does have limits.

The standing to sue is an issue for user generated content, yes.

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by cvsh on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:05PM (#15015040)
>Sentiment analysis of copyrighted text passages might be claimed as being a derivitive work for example.

So if a company releases a product that predicts likelihood of an employee quitting, you think you're going to have standing to sue because an analysis of a copyrighted passage you wrote comprised 0.000001% of the source material the algorithm was trained on?

Re:U.S. judge says LinkedIn cannot block startup from public... by tyingq on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:40PM (#15015235)
You left out my last sentence, on purpose I suppose.

The context was that scraping doesn't always get a free pass because "facts". This specific case may skirt it because of the user generated content. Doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning for the larger context that copyright isn't black and white.