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Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by ptero on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:00AM (#15007581)
If I'm reading a paper in Nature I can assume that the editors and reviewers did first checks on content (BS can still get through, but it is rare). Self-published, unknown journal gives me none of that. Thus when making hiring decisions it does help to overweight established journals. And most tenure tracks in academia make mistakes costly.

I do not like the current system, but established, well curated journals do provide some benefits in academia hiring. They do damage, too, but to a different group. My 2c.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by bobcostas55 on Monday August 14, 2017 @07:26AM (#15007909)
>BS can still get through, but it is rare

The data[0] suggests the exact opposite: the more prestigious the journal, the more bad science it attracts.

[0] http://bjoern.brembs.net/2016/01/even-without-retractions-to...

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by Ar-Curunir on Monday August 14, 2017 @10:47AM (#15008927)
That's possible in a few exceptional cases, but at least in CS, you can see a very visible quality drop as you go from the top conferences to the second-tier conferences.
Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by jtmcmc on Monday August 14, 2017 @02:50PM (#15011401)
That was looking at only a very small part of the curve of journals. There is a long tail of really terrible journals publishing terrible science.
Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by nonbel on Monday August 14, 2017 @12:10PM (#15009739)
>"If I'm reading a paper in Nature I can assume that the editors and reviewers did first checks on content (BS can still get through, but it is rare)"

You think stuff published in nature is better? I found the opposite, that Nature publishes papers with "sexy" results and poorly described methodology. Nature is one of the worst journals, I cringe when info I want is in a Nature article (although with supplements it is getting better).

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by amelius on Monday August 14, 2017 @08:26AM (#15008137)
Perhaps we should use the equivalent of "page-rank" for scientific papers and their citations as a quality measure (?)
Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by stult on Monday August 14, 2017 @08:48AM (#15008229)
Well, that exists in the form of citations. The more a paper is cited the more valued are its authors. Just as the more often a site is linked to, the higher its page rank. And since you're not dealing with massive numbers of sites with lots of SEO experts, straight citation count is good enough without any of the corrections included in the page rank algorithm.

Hiring committees look at both quantity of publications and citations to those publications. The problem is that quantity doesn't always indicate quality. Which is why journal prestige acts as a proxy measure.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by rocqua on Monday August 14, 2017 @10:43AM (#15008897)
I always though this was the impact factor of a journal. However, according to [1] that is not the case. [2] Mentions the 'eigenfactor' which seems to be closer to emulating page-rank. I haven't read much about it though.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_factor [2] http://researchguides.uic.edu/if/impact

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by amelius on Monday August 14, 2017 @09:01AM (#15008281)
> Well, that exists in the form of citations.

Page-rank is "transitive" in the sense that it not only counts citations, but also citations-of-citations, etc.

I wonder though if such a system can be easily gamed (see SEO), without damaging the reputation of offending authors.

Also, we should perhaps have the concept of "negative citations". For example, when the text contains "In this paper we show that the approach of [..] is incorrect."

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by ptero on Monday August 14, 2017 @08:48AM (#15008225)
Maybe, but it will take some work. IMO the main challenge is to get wide buy in.

Many researchers do not love the current system, but are mostly OK with it. They are not looking to topple it; if everyone is using a different option, they will switch, too, but they are not your passionaries to drive the change.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by majewsky on Monday August 14, 2017 @09:12AM (#15008324)
I agree that good papers are likely the most cited ones. However, how are the people citing a paper going to find it? The traditional mechanism is for the paper to gain exposure by being published in a prestigious journal.
Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by madez on Monday August 14, 2017 @08:01AM (#15008043)
> Self-published, unknown journal gives me none of that.

How can you know that?

Edit: I don't know why I get the downvotes. My question might be naive, but its serious. I think it is not self-evident why an unkown self-published journal couldn't give you that. Elsevier was also once unknown. For me it sounds like a logical fallacy, but I wanted to know your take on it. It's pretty cheap to just downvote me for asking.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by rocqua on Monday August 14, 2017 @10:47AM (#15008934)
It's the opposite. You can't be sure that a self-published journal has editors and reviewers do a first check. This means you need to confirm and audit their practices.

Compare this to a publication in nature. There, by virtue of the name, you know the article is worth more. (Note that in practice, Nature apparently has quite a few sham publications)

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by madez on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:37AM (#15009423)
If we were talking about self-published articles, I'd agree, but we are not. We are talking about self-published journals.

Under self-published journals I understand a journal brought out by the researchers or research organisatons. I don't see why Germany's or even Europe's universities and research institutions couldn't publish a peer-reviewed and checked journal in collaboration, without a third entity, that can provide the quality of, say, nature.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by HarryHirsch on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:54AM (#15009572)
I don't see why Germany's or even Europe's universities and research institutions couldn't publish a peer-reviewed and checked journal in collaboration, without a third entity, that can provide the quality of, say, nature.

You mean a university press or a society journal? That model worked extremely well for > 100 years, until in the 1990s the societies sold their journals to Wiley, Springer and Elsevier, and somewhere around that time Springer took a wrong turn. You'd really like to ask why the selloff happened when it did.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by madez on Monday August 14, 2017 @11:58AM (#15009607)
But then why again did I get downvoted?
Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by upvotinglurker on Wednesday August 16, 2017 @01:26PM (#15029344)
I believe when they said "self-published, unknown" journals, the key word was unknown rather than self-published. They're not talking about journals self-published by established scholarly societies and so forth, who are "known." Nature (or other known journals) come with an established reputation (deserved or not) for publishing high quality work; an unknown journal (i.e. one with no established reputation one way or the other) by definition cannot provide this.

In recent years, journals that claim to have a peer review process but which actually offer dubious or no review or quality control have proliferated (some are even published by companies like Elsevier). Having no established reputation doesn't prove that a journal is bad, but having an established reputation is a heuristic shortcut for evaluating whether it is good (at least in the "no one was ever fired for buying IBM" sense). Hiring committees use this heuristic to save time when filtering candidates.

Re:German universities take on Dutch publishing giant Elsevier by lucasverra on Monday August 14, 2017 @06:52AM (#15007766)
Would it a good use case for a blockchain validation system ? Decentralized (scientific) content reviewer ? Pay scarce resource (attention odf the well educated/trained scientist) with some new coin "SCI-coin" ?