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Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by criddell on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:01AM (#14990324)
I read this article last weekend and after reading it, I put batteries in my shortwave radio to see what was out there. Turns out, there's pretty much nothing.

I couldn't hear anything on 4625 kHz. I let my receiver scan and when it was done I checked out what it detected and found absolutely nothing interesting. The most powerful signals were Christian broadcasts that had a kind of doomsday feeling about them.

It seems like there's a lot of underutilized spectrum.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by squarefoot on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:27AM (#14990628)
Night hours are best for shortwave reception. You could also need an external antenna depending on how far you are listening from. Another problem, probably the biggest one today, which affects reception on these frequencies (and generally on the HF bands) is the radio noise generated by many bad designed switching power supplies and appliances. Switching regulators (power supplies, converters, chargers etc.) for efficiency and size reasons have moved from the tens of KHz through the hundreds of KHz and recently they started working above 1 MHz which means having into our homes one or more transmitters with antennas (mains or output cable) that if not properly designed, filtered and shielded will render reception on HF bands next to impossible.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by criddell on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:10PM (#14991235)
Thanks for the information.

The shortwave frequencies still feel very underutilized. When I scan the FM (88 - 108 MHz) and AM (540-1600 kHz) radio frequencies, I pick up a lot of stuff. The shortwave band is relatively vast and feels very sparse. Considering how valuable spectrum is these days, it's hard to believe that we couldn't find a better use for it. Is it because it is so prone to noise that it's less valuable?

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by jlgaddis on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:09PM (#14992030)
The wavelength at these frequencies is very long, meaning antennas must be very large. In addition, the bandwidth is very small -- you can't exactly encode data on these frequencies for any practical purpose (some digital modes are popular on ham radio bands; e.g. PSK31, RTTY, etc.)
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by TheRealEdAbbey on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:35PM (#14992315)
Yep, PSK31 has a baud rate of 31.25 - that's literally 31 bits per second. There's no practical use for that in modern commercial or consumer applications.

In amateur bands, symbol rate below 28 MHz is limited to 300 baud.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by vvanders on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:17PM (#14992717)
And anything in the 2M band is also symbol rate limited(I want to say it was 1200baud but I could be wrong).

It's really frustrating if you want to do any development with digital modes.

[edit]

Looked it up, it's a 19.6k symbol rate limit(rather than leave it open and restrict bandwidth). You can carry a ton of data on 2M if you wanted but legally you can't exceed the speed of an old dial up modem.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by lb1lf on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:45PM (#14992949)
Are US ham bands really symbol rate (rather than bandwidth)limited?

Here in LA (Norway, for the ham prefix challenged), we can modulate in whatever way we feel like on 2M, as long as the signal bandwidth does not exceed 18kHz.

(So, using a clever modulation scheme, you could get very close to the Shannon limit for the given channel bandwidth and noise level - assuming a very healthy 30dB S/N, one should be able to wring approx. 180kbps from an 18kHz channel. (Granted, in the real world with filters without infinitely steep skirts we'd get nowhere near this - but, let's say you could get 1/3 or so without trying too hard.)

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by vvanders on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:32PM (#14993365)
It's actually both, 20Khz bandwidth and the 19.6k symbol rate.

I love amateur radio but at least on the 2m bands it's mostly dominated by people just chatting on repeaters with others they already know or dead quiet. I monitor 146.52(our calling frequence) on my ~300mi weekly trip and I've made only one contact in 2 years.

APRS is pretty dead, there's a ton of interesting stuff that could be done on the ECC and symbol rate front but no one really seems interested. Not much has changed on the spec for a long time. Compared to some other countries where they have some very robust and flourishing 2m digital modes it's a shame.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by TheRealEdAbbey on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:08PM (#14993171)
Essentially, yes. My guess is that it's due to the fact that amateur radio for a long time has been CW and SSB, where there isn't much bandwidth issue. Digital modes are the new kid on the block (especially considering the average age of US hams is probably quite high), so rather than addressing the root issue, they decided just to target that new kid.

There are bandwidth restrictions on the 60m band, where amateur radio is secondary.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by benashford on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:25PM (#14994444)
There is more than one shortwave band, some are more useful than others and there are fairly large gaps between them, so it would feel sparse even if there were a lot of stations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortwave_bands

But as others have said, in many parts of the world there aren't many shortwave stations left. Africa and parts of Asia still have quite a few however.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by eeZah7Ux on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:26PM (#14991460)
Bandwidth is key. Transmitting digital signals at high rate would eat up most of the spectrum.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by criddell on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:35PM (#14991578)
How were they able to pack so many digital radio stations on FM? Is it because it's higher frequency?
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by Qworg on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:46PM (#14991720)
Yes, definitely.

You can think of the trade off roughly as "frequency increases increase bandwidth and decrease penetration/range"

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by exabrial on Friday August 11, 2017 @09:39PM (#14995863)
Until you get to x-rays! I've always wondered why this is
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by planteen on Saturday August 12, 2017 @10:29AM (#14997998)
If you are looking at xray penetration in the atmosphere, it is very opaque. Almost no xrays get through hence why space telescopes are needed to do xray astronomy.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by simmons on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:18PM (#14993251)
As others have mentioned, the time of day may have effected reception of the 4625 kHz station.

However, in general, I've noticed that there seems to be far fewer stations received on the shortwave band these days, compared to the 1980's when I listened to shortwave a lot as a kid. I think this is because I'm using a low-end receiver with its built-in telescopic antenna instead of a more sophisticated SWL setup with a proper antenna. Broadcasters such as the BBC World Service target specific geographies with their transmissions so they can be received on a low-end radio, and they no longer bother targeting developed regions such as North America with these transmissions. I'm guessing if I used the same radio somewhere like Africa, I'd be able to pick up a lot more stations.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by soneil on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:47AM (#14997235)
> It seems like there's a lot of underutilized spectrum.

There's some good reasons for this. HF is pretty challenging to fully utilize.

You have propagation that varies between "worldwide" (so it's difficult to assign new bands without ITU involvement), and "sunspot" (so you better have a plan B). And these variations aren't just over the duration of a sunspot cycle, but also over the day/night cycle.

eg, for maritime use, we have channel clusters at 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 16MHz. Which to use depends on the time of day the distance to the other station, and how much the sunspot cycle is messing with your first choice. Fun!

Then the physical challenges that arise from the ideal antenna length being proportional to the length of the wave. At 2.4GHz the challenge is precisely cutting your quarter-wave antenna to a fraction of a mm (31.25mm). At 2.4MHz same challenge becomes finding space for a 31.25m (~100feet) antenna.

Another big consideration is that these frequencies aren't particularly friendly to high-speed digital use. I suspect this is related to Nyquist theorem - the fewer waves you're receiving per second, the fewer symbols per second can be encoded into them.

And finally, some rather difficult legacy users. Aviation and Marine users who consider their usage life-or-death, radio amateurs that likely do too (heh), radio-navigation (I was reading about Loran making a comeback recently, to provide some backup when GPS is manipulated), over-the-horizon radar (which can be a lot like sharing a telephone call with a foghorn), etc.

All this taking up about as much bandwidth as one wifi channel ..

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by crispyambulance on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:28PM (#14991481)

    > The most powerful signals were Christian broadcasts that had a kind of doomsday feeling about them.
Perhaps WMLK? Weird stuff coming from Berks County PA!

Here's the antenna:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4793923,-76.279183,3a,44y,28...

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by criddell on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:33PM (#14991544)
That sounds familiar. I think I was also getting something from somewhere near Scottsdale, AZ.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by wedowhatwedo on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:26AM (#14990612)
As the article says, just because you couldn't hear it the one time you tried, doesn't mean it isn't transmitting. You hearing it depends on the condition of the ionosphere. The time of day, the number of sunspots along with other things will effect your reception of the signal.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by hourislate on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:43AM (#14990787)
From what I understand it isn't on all the time. There are actually long periods of time where it doesn't transmit anything. Last week when I was digging a little deeper I ran into an older discussion on another board where they were saying it was off for years and came back on when Russia invaded Ukraine.

It could be off again, don't know.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by tuxxy on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:24AM (#14990583)
Were you in a good spot? I can hear a lot of stuff with my shortwave receiver and I'm in SLC, Utah. Occasionally, I get to hear pirate transmissions and whatnot.
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by PappaPatat on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:50PM (#14991768)
"pirate transmissions" I am surprised. Only a month ago I met a guy who (as an "art project") has actually started to transmit on the shortwave. Bought an old army radio and was now jumping all over the country with the installation and transmitting... well, arty stuff. He claimed he got responses every now and then, now I think he might be right. Is that a thing? I bailed out of the radio waves 30 years ago when I got access to data links...
Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by criddell on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:13PM (#14991286)
I'm in central Texas (Austin). No idea if that's a good spot or not.

I pick up a lot on the FM and AM bands. The shortwave bands feel comparatively empty.

Re:A ghostly radio station that no one claims to run by jacquesm on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:07PM (#14993159)
It might be single sideband, try USB or LSB.