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Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by ChuckMcM on Thursday August 10, 2017 @12:02PM (#14981005)
When I worked at IBM I expressed concern that the television commercials depicting a HAL9000 level interactive dialog system were dangerously overselling what Watson could do.

The challenge, as I saw it, was that no matter how good the tools and products that were used to help companies with data analysis to improve their operations were, when they realize they can't talk to a cube and joke with it about misusing colloquial phrases their disappointment overshadows all the 'good' stuff it was doing for them.

No relationship works well if it starts with a lie and as this article shows, people do take those ads at face value and assume there really is a talking AI inside of IBM. Then they are hugely disappointed when they find out it doesn't exist.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by ethbro on Thursday August 10, 2017 @12:26PM (#14981287)
Over-promising has killed AI progress before (expert systems). So history's just repeating itself.

People want to believe. They'll pay for their belief. Then when projects start to fail (~5 years after commercialization) they form the opinion that it was never going to work and they'll never do it again.

... then we wait another decade, repeat.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by olewhalehunter on Thursday August 10, 2017 @02:06PM (#14982416)
There's this trend of Expert Systems being commented on as a failure and starting some sort of AI winter, yet to my knowledge they were among the first commercially viable digital animation tools, the first high speed trading platforms, and are still being used successfully in military planning. Where's the evidence that they were a failure or that they were oversold?
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by sgt101 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:25PM (#14983831)
Well, there was this place called "The Turing Institute" which was in Glasgow. It was run by a very nice man called Don Michie. I met Don a handful of times, and he was extremely kind and generous to me. He worked at Bletchley Park and died aged 91 having hit a bridge at 120mph going the wrong way up the M11 at 2am sitting next to his wife who had defected to Russia thirty years before. Don was driving, at the time he had been blind for six months.

Anyway, The Turing Institute existed because of Don's drive to commercialise Expert Systems. Don was a driver in the Alvey project which was a grand project to solve issues around Expert Systems in response to the Japanese Fifth Generation project. A man called Lighthill then rumbled the Expert System movement. If you want to watch a demolition of it see the following video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yReDbeY7ZMU

and the other 5 of them (you will find them in the sidebar!)

Fun fact. In video 6 you can watch Christopher Strachey have a pop at AI. Christopher didn't work at Bletchley, he was too young, but he did work at Manchester with Alan Turing and they created computer music and love poetry in collaboration before Turing killed himself. Strachey went on to be the first Professor of Computer Science at Oxford, he was a scion of a great family of artists and poets.

But enough of this. The Turing Institute was an attempt to say "we are right, look", but in fact it failed. Don was clear why, when you hit 40k rules knowledge bases became completely intractable. It was impossible to make improvements or changes. This was christened the Knowledge Acquisition bottleneck, and Don and others turned to Machine Learning (he liked to call it Behavioral Cloning) to solve it.

So :

1. It was done to death by peer review.

2. It died commercially.

3. It's main protagonists decided to do something diffferent.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by taneq on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:04PM (#14985528)
> I met Don a handful of times, and he was extremely kind and generous to me. He worked at Bletchley Park and died aged 91 having hit a bridge at 120mph going the wrong way up the M11 at 2am sitting next to his wife who had defected to Russia thirty years before. Don was driving, at the time he had been blind for six months.

Wow, what a rollercoaster of a paragraph! Thanks for the story. :)

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by icc97 on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:50AM (#14988668)
That's eerily similar to how John Nash died [0]

[0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/john-f-nash-jr-dies-...

> ... died May 23 in a two-car accident on the New Jersey Turnpike. He was 86. His wife, Alicia, who was 82, also died.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by yvhhjbb on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:43PM (#14985737)
Clearly that's his way of saying something dodgy happened. Note the mention of Russia.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by nl on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:45AM (#14986872)
No, I think the poster is mis-remembering things which were based on facts.

Donald Michie did work (with Turing!) at Bletchley Park, and he did die in a motor vehicle accident. He was 83 when he died (not 91)[1]. His ex-wife[2] (they had remained friends) was in the car with him and also died. She had never defected to Russia, but she was (or had been) a member of the communist party[2].

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1556846/Professor...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_McLaren

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by voltagex_ on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:46PM (#14986021)
Err, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about in regards to Donald Michie - the BBC obit confirms the car crash but says they were both in their 80s. Are you suggesting there was foul play?
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by sillysaurus3 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:34PM (#14985974)
Well, there was this place called "The Turing Institute" which was in Glasgow. It was run by a very nice man called Don Michie. I met Don a handful of times, and he was extremely kind and generous to me. He worked at Bletchley Park and died aged 91 having hit a bridge at 120mph going the wrong way up the M11 at 2am sitting next to his wife who had defected to Russia thirty years before. Don was driving, at the time he had been blind for six months.

Would you mind going into detail? I looked up three news reports and his wikipedia page and none mention anything beyond a car crash, and searching "Don Mitchie russia" and "Anne McLaren russia" gives only this HN thread as a relevant result.

It sounds like you were close with them, so if there's anything more to that story then it would be interesting to hear it.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by lsh123 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @10:41PM (#14986210)
I found this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_McLaren

There is a detailed year by year description of her work and I can't see how she could have "defected to Russia" except one note "...she was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain..."

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by ramchip on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:37AM (#14986839)
There's more detail in various news articles following the accident, but also no mention of Russia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1556847/Professor...

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by ethbro on Thursday August 10, 2017 @04:56PM (#14984168)
Don't think you deserve to be down voted for asking a reasonable question.

A) Most of the documentation is on the other side of the digital event horizon (so pre-1995).

B) I break apart knowledge about AI (that is, the mathematical and systems discoveries) and AI as a product. The assertion is not that the knowledge failed, but that the product failed.

As you pointed out, the math behind expert systems was solid and functional for certain problems. But the collapse of the product (aided by the popular science press researcher-hunting for whoever would promise the most outlandish things for them) broke the funding channel for anything labelled AI.

As a result, methods used by expert systems lived on and solved problems, but nobody could call it AI because conventional wisdom knew that "AI was a failure."

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by ghaff on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:45AM (#14990828)
One of the big things that eventually changed was data--the availability of lots of data and the capability to transmit, store, and process it relatively economically. As I remember a lot of the late-80s, early-90s AI efforts, there was a lot of focus on encoding the world and the rules associated with it manually. Effectively, scaling out the knowledge of experts by embedding it in computers.

I actually wonder if we're swinging too far in the opposite direction of data vs. "understanding" the world. It may turn out that we can make some things pretty good using ML but not the last 5% needed to make them truly usable.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by yourapostasy on Saturday August 12, 2017 @11:01AM (#14998102)
> I actually wonder if we're swinging too far in the opposite direction of data vs. "understanding" the world. It may turn out that we can make some things pretty good using ML but not the last 5% needed to make them truly usable.

Interesting hypothesis, care to expand your thoughts?

Are you saying something along the lines that our current ML techniques builds an initial raw decision with statistically-based reasoning, that usually works 95% of the time (Metzinger's "sentience"), but to solve the remaining 5% of edge cases, we need to build more reasoning-style decision-making (Metzinger's "intelligence")? Metzinger is covered by Peter Watts [1], jump to the "Sentience/Intelligence" section.

[1] http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm#Notes

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by kobeya on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:47AM (#14986885)
And also the wealth of venture capital that existed in the 1980's to fund AI dried up and from ~90 to ten years ago it was nearly impossible to get significant startup funding for an AI play, despite the epic influx of capital in the 90's. AI missed out entirely on the dotcom years.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by throwaway7645 on Friday August 11, 2017 @07:13AM (#14988428)
Just like the "Lisp AI Winter" when the defense department stopped spending big on AI in the 80's.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by erdle on Thursday August 10, 2017 @10:33PM (#14986189)
The funny thing about that ... is that IBM's long time ad agency is Ogilvy & Mather.

It was founded by David Ogilvy.

One of his big things was "nothing kills a bad product faster than great advertising"... he would be so ashamed of these ads.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by thinnerlizzy on Friday August 11, 2017 @03:13AM (#14987308)
I worked there for a time and can tell you that many of the creatives I worked with assumed that if Watson won Jeopardy, then it could do literally anything (indeed talking to you like a human), so a lot of the creative concepts were pretty far fetched.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by JimsWonderWorld on Sunday August 13, 2017 @10:07PM (#15006208)
I'm still there :-( I was amazed and I could hardly wait to integrate this incredible service into my apps I was writing at the time. Then I took a look into the services and realized that they were too primitive to build any type of AI. How did watson win Jeopardy? The world may never know....<cough>fraud</cough>
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by protomyth on Thursday August 10, 2017 @10:02PM (#14986081)
Wasn’t that the same type of conflict that doomed the Newton? The engineers didn’t want marketing to talk about the handwriting recognition (nice extra, look what other things we do) but marketing ignored them. The Newton never recovered.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by Angostura on Friday August 11, 2017 @01:46AM (#14986878)
The engineers didn't want marketing to talk about the primary method of data entry and one of the most superficially innovative thing about it?

I can only imagine the look on marketing's face when they heard that one.

Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by protomyth on Friday August 11, 2017 @10:29AM (#14989975)
It wouldn't have been the primary. The Newton had an on screen keyboard like products today. Innovation is only innovation if it works, and the Newton had a lot of amazing things going on, some of which the iPhone doesn't even attempt. The emphasis on handwriting recognition killed the product (along with a healthy does of hatred from Steve Jobs).
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by Angostura on Friday August 11, 2017 @05:35PM (#14994514)
It really didn't kill the product - Jobs did. Yes, the Newton OS had some great stuff in it - I loved the soup model, but in terms of a newspaper or billboard ad? The handwriting was a no-brainer. Yes it was mocked - in much the same way that Siri is mocked today, but with small adjustyto your native handwriting written input became fast Nd accurate
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by protomyth on Saturday August 12, 2017 @05:21PM (#15000037)
It was mocked before on national tv when national tv was still a thing. It killed any hope for that product. It was mocked on tv, comics, and everyone who did a review. Heck, the Simpsons mocked it long after. It had plenty of billboard quality features (the intelligent stuff was practically built for ads) much more than its simpler, limited competition.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by pryelluw on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:01AM (#14986499)
I do think it was positioned wrong. Which is amazing given how clear their actual positioning was. Big data and ML are big business opportunities. IBM's marketing just jumped the shark and could lose a lot of market share due to it.
Re:A rising sentiment that IBM’s Watson can’t deliver on its... by raverbashing on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:02AM (#14986974)
Not a surprising position coming from IBM