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Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by jbob2000 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @02:58PM (#14972463)
>We should double our annual infrastructure budget. We can fund this by stopping the high-speed rail, and spend the $68+ billion we are planning to spend on that on better local rapid transit systems, improved bus lines, and new roads instead. This will allow people to live in more affordable housing and have a better quality of life.

Bad idea. More roads does not mean less traffic, More roads = more cars. And more infrastructure begets more infrastructure - You build more roads and buses and light rail lines, now you need all the staff to maintain these things, now you need somewhere for these staff to live, now you need more infrastructure to get the staff to work to maintain the infrastructure...

Stop the madness! The answer is not to transit at all. Live near your job, walk or bike to work. Build more housing dammit! Why the fuck does a software company need to be in the middle of big city? All you need is electricity and internet, move out to the country!

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by KirinDave on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:26PM (#14972703)
> Stop the madness! The answer is not to transit at all. Live near your job, walk or bike to work. Build more housing dammit! Why the fuck does a software company need to be in the middle of big city? All you need is electricity and internet, move out to the country!

The average time of employment in the tech sector for people under 40 in tech is under 4 years. Your plan is untenable because it involves frequent personal relocation to make feasible.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by dbloom on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:30PM (#14972728)
Not to mention people whose spouses/partners work at a different company!
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by yahna on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:13PM (#14972588)
> Stop the madness! The answer is not to transit at all. Live near your job, walk or bike to work. Build more housing dammit! Why the fuck does a software company need to be in the middle of big city? All you need is electricity and internet, move out to the country!

I don't want to commute out to the country.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by shados on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @07:36PM (#14974801)
> Why the fuck does a software company need to be in the middle of big city.

> Live near your job

Hmm.....

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by gozur88 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:02PM (#14973039)
If you don't build roads, people will still come. Instead of having more roads = more cars you end up with same road = more cars, which is not ideal.

Personally, I think California's HSR project is stupid and the money could be better spent on regional light rail plus conventional rail between metro areas. But allowing CA to become a shitty place to live so as to force people from their cars is the least attractive option.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:08PM (#14973093)
> If you don't build roads, people will still come. Instead of having more roads = more cars you end up with same road = more cars, which is not ideal.

That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing.

> Personally, I think California's HSR project is stupid and the money could be better spent on regional light rail plus conventional rail between metro areas.

But, the HSR project is spending money on regional light rail and conventional rail between metro areas.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by gozur88 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:37PM (#14973348)
>That's empirically not as true as it intuitively seems; induced traffic is a thing.

It's definitely empirically true. I've watched it happen for decades. There are certainly new cars on the road, but they would have been there anyway, for the most part. If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not.

Now, I'd rather we had enough rail to handle all those people and more, but the problem with rail is before your network is built out completely it's not very useful.

>But, the HSR project is spending money on regional light rail and conventional rail between metro areas.

Great. Then all we need to cancel is the HSR itself.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by dragonwriter on Thursday August 10, 2017 @02:20AM (#14976964)
> It's definitely empirically true. I've watched it happen for decades. There are certainly new cars on the road, but they would have been there anyway, for the most part.

Your unsupported speculation of what you expect would have been true in a counterfactual situation is not support for a claim of empirical truth.

> If you have a growing economy people immigrate in search of jobs whether the infrastructure is ready or not.

People are not the same thing as the car trips; whether the same number of people would have been present with less road capacity is a different question than whether the number of car trips would have been.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by mallaidh on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @08:42PM (#14975231)
It's definitely empirically true, and you've got a vague anecdote to prove it.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by gozur88 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @02:11AM (#14976921)
My "vague anecdote" is California has more than twice the population it had in 1970. That's not a question of induced driving. That's running to stay even.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by throwanem on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:04PM (#14972508)
Okay. And without boiling the ocean, what have you got that's better?
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by jbob2000 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:22PM (#14972677)
Short term - more buses, alternate day driving, increase incentives for no car ownership (tax rebate), increase penalties for car ownership (increase parking fees/fines, increase number of no-parking tow-away zones).

Medium term - Build bike lanes, convert streets to promenades, build light rail, build traffic calmers (narrow streets, speed bumps, lane bollards)

Long term - Marketing programs to encourage different business lifestyles (city vs. country, remote vs in-person). Tax incentives for moving out of the city.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by KirinDave on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @06:10PM (#14974193)
It must be cool to have no desire for stability in your life or the life of your spouse and offspring.

Certainly I'd find that lifestyle less difficult to plan moves around. Of course, I'd also find it fulfilling and depressing.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by the_common_man on Thursday August 10, 2017 @12:44AM (#14976452)
What are you talking about?
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by closeparen on Thursday August 10, 2017 @03:46AM (#14977350)
In a world with effectively zero transportation possible beyond a range of a few miles, you need to move every time you change jobs (or never see your family because you're walking/biking/riding a bus for a huge chunk of each day).
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by brwr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:28PM (#14972719)
Giving away money is not generally an effective solution. Where is that money going to come from?
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by tmh79 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:09PM (#14972553)
denser, 10 - 20 story tall transit oriented development in caltrain and bart station parking lots.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by brwr on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:26PM (#14972704)
Can you clarify what you mean by "transit oriented development"? As a general rule of thumb, 10-20 story tall buildings are an eye sore. I don't think it makes sense to make things denser if it's going to be so ugly that no one wants to live there.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by tmh79 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:51PM (#14972926)
> As a general rule of thumb, 10-20 story tall buildings are an eye sore

That isn't a rule of thumb at all, just your opinion...

I don't think it makes sense to make things denser if it's going to be so ugly that no one wants to live there.

Very rarely, if ever, are buildings "so ugly that no one wants to live there", especially when places to live are as scarce as they are in SFBA.

also, transit oriented development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit-oriented_development

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by CPLX on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:59PM (#14972998)
> As a general rule of thumb, 10-20 story tall buildings are an eye sore.

Just FYI, people saying things like this is definitely a key part of why us New Yorkers think the Bay Area has literally gone insane.

Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by throwanem on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:25PM (#14973239)
You New Yorkers have a unique perspective of your own on such matters! It's a great town, and you folks up there do a wonderful job of making a body feel welcome. But there's too many tall buildings and not enough tall trees for me to ever want to live there, and I can see why people who like SF for what it is wouldn't want it to follow your example, any more than I want Baltimore to.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by gozur88 on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:04PM (#14973054)
You couldn't pay me enough to live in NYC. Those big urban canyons are my idea of hell, and I would really not like to see SF go that direction.
Re:Petition for Smarter Infrastructure by Zigurd on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @03:37PM (#14972783)
You get a heck of a view from above the 10th floor. I'd live there. Opposing dense development near transit seems close to the ultimate NIMBYism.