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Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by BenoitEssiambre on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @12:28PM (#14959489)
This is full of misunderstandings about monetary policy and money creation.

Currencies that are not designed to lose value over time can not be stable. Intrinsically worthless tokens engineered to have better than market risk adjusted, liquidity adjusted, real returns compared to real productive investment will always be unstable and fluctuate increasingly wildly as they get more popular. This is a result of physical limits of production. As people hoard worthless tokens, their price increases which causes more people to hoard them instead of investing in real businesses with real production capacity.

This eventually causes production capacity to drop. That's right, when enough people do it, token hoarding displaces investment in businesses and factories and lowers global production capacity. This means token hoarding causes a future drop in things available to buy with these tokens.

Eventually there will be people who want to buy real things with their stock of tokens. The tokens will be chasing fewer goods which means prices for stuff will rise (tokens will lose value). This might happen suddenly when people with large stockpiles of tokens notice that value is dropping and that there are tons of other tokens waiting on the sideline to make it drop even further. Hoarders might rush to get rid of their stockpile all at the same time before they're worthless which will cause their fall to worthlessness. This drop will bring the tokens closer to their natural intrinsic value of zero. The cycle can then start again, such is aggregate economics.

The 1920s and 1930s suffered from this type of cycle but with gold tied currencies instead of cryptocoins. It happened to a lesser extent in 2007 when western world central banks failed to keep inflation rates high enough. It's important for the world's sake to not let deflationary currencies become too popular.

When savings or financial promises are insufficiently tied to future production or to accumulation of real goods, there will be disappointment when many people try to exchange them for real stuff. That is true for crypto currencies as well as government currencies (that is why the system is designed to make banks invest people's money in real businesses and minimize the proportion of money that is stockpiled idly).

It's true that crypto currencies are currently not sufficiently widely held to significantly affect the macroeconomy but speculation already keeps them rather volatile and the knowledge that as they get more popular you get additional volatility pressures, will keep the speculation wild and the deflationary cryptocoins unstable.

Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by mindslight on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:15PM (#14960799)
The problem you point out is real; similarly Gresham's law. And while something like gold does have an intrinsic value based on its engineering uses, that value tends towards relative zero as the monetary bubble inflates. And I suppose you could say something similar about Bitcoin, with its intrinsic worth being the value of a distributed-trust ordering (eg timestamping) system, but I digress.

But the problem pointed out by the hard money enthusiasts is real as well. Once more tokens are being created for systemic reasons, a principle agent problem on who gets those newly created tokens is also created. In our present system it's the banking cartel, as they can spin it to sound as if they're impartial by loaning most of the money out. But they do take the first cut (points) and ongoing fees (interest) for use of the money that their privileges conjured, and nowadays have even dropped all pretense of being symmetric by stopping paying out interest.

We don't know what the resolution is between these conflicting frameworks (otherwise, the problem would be solved). But it's not particularly surprising that when the second problem grows in scope as it has in our modern society, benefiting the well connected while further eroding the power of the masses at the edge, that the first problem will be ignored while seeking refuge from the second.

Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by BenoitEssiambre on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:23PM (#14962147)
The "banking cartel" doesn't create new money and doesn't get new money for free. They can only borrow it at market rates. The central bank can create money but it is not allowed to spend it. It can only lend it or swap it for collateral.

If what you have in mind is fractional reserve lending as indirect money "creation", this also creates liabilities for the banks. The banks owe to depositors all the money they "create" this way. It's not free money.

Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by secabeen on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:27PM (#14960941)
This is pretty good. The one element that I don't see here is the connection between money supply growth and increases in population and productivity. If money is a representation of the value that people generate, we need a source of money that roughly grows at the rate of growth in value created by humans. Otherwise, we end up with significant inflation or deflation, both of which are bad.
Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by simonhughes22 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:04PM (#14960656)
So to summarize your points, if Bitcoin, or what crypto-currency comes to dominate, becomes a serious global currency to rival that of the dollar, if it's horded and not used to transact or invest in the economy, which is a danger due to its deflationary nature, then that will have dire consequences. But so long as its used as a currency and not primarily as a value store, then it's not a problem. Which is concerning. What concerns me about bitcoin currently is that it's not used a currency, AFAICT most people use it as an investment vehicle. It is worth pointing out that not all crypto-currencies are deflationary. Ethereum for instance, has no limit on the number of tokens.
Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by simonhughes22 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:58PM (#14960585)
I think it's important to differentiate between the potential of crypto-currencies as currency, and the technology that powers them - the blockchain. I think the blockchain has a huge potential to revolutionize many industries. Whether crypto-currencies like Bitcoin actual take off as real currencies is less certain and may have some negative effects. But whatever happens, the blockchain itself (and presumably ether that powers the smart contracts) will be around for a long time.
Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by honestlyreally on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @10:39PM (#14965075)
I really can't agree with your take on inflation being a necessity for stable societies.

It's a fallacy.

Eventually developed countries hit a point where they are just chasing the next economic hit only to cause disastrous misallocation of resources. Japan went down this path decades ago, the west is next.

Reserve banks should target 0% inflation. Dividing the dollar down to 8 decimals neatly solves hoarding issues.

Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by eridius on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:23PM (#14960099)
This is basically what happened to Bitcoin itself in the early days, isn't it? People hoarding them, then the value crashing as a scare causes people to try and dump their stash.
Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by simonhughes22 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:15PM (#14960801)
While I agree with that person's comments, I am not sure i'd aggree that is what happened in the first Bitcoin bubble. The main event was that Mt Gox got hacked, and a number of other things happened around that time (for instance the IRS recognized bitcoin as an asset so they could tax it) that culminated in a big crash for the market as confidence was lost all of a sudden, after a big spike in prices.
Re:A quick reminder why Bitcoin was created in the first place by eridius on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:33PM (#14961011)
There have been multiple crashes though.