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Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by trevyn on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:33AM (#14941690)
This is not a problem. In my experience, professional landlords & managers offer clean, updated apartments that are a joy to check into and are a way better place to stay than hotels. I love using Airbnb for specifically this reason.

It seems like in Europe, professional short-term apartment rental is a common thing anyway -- Airbnb just serves as a centralized listing platform. This is less common in the US.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by brandur on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:46AM (#14941752)
I think it's stated quite clearly in the article, but although professional landlords might be fine for AirBnB tenants (and obviously good for the landlords themselves), they're bad for cities and their residents:

> Berlin, like most German cities, is experiencing an acute shortage of affordable homes. Rents are rising at a rate of nearly 10 percent a year, even though the city has a rent cap and has introduced one of the strictest bans on holiday apartments - many other European cities also have some kind of regulation.

The problem with housing is that the supply is very fixed. A unit that's taken off the market to become a full time AirBnB is one that's not available as a rental for a resident of the city anymore.

There's an argument to be made for private property rights, but the further trouble with real estate is that it's often made as an investment, and like other capital, it tends to be reallocated disproportionately over time.

While it might seem obvious for someone to be able to rent out their vacation home part time, it's much less so that an owner of 15 units in downtown San Francisco should be able to hire a property manager and rent them all on AirBnB full time — given a sufficiently enticing city for business/tourism, eventually there won't be enough stock for the locals anymore (or more accurately, the upwards pressure on price will make it unaffordable for nearly everyone).

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by woah on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:54AM (#14941777)
Supply is very fixed? Most of the cities that you read about having a "rent crisis" also have a very aggressive contingent of anti-housing construction folks.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by snogglethorpe on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:01PM (#14941816)
That, presumably, is one reason supply is restricted ("fixed"), along with other restrictive laws, like height or density limits, forced parking minimums, etc.

Another contributor is poor transportation infrastructure, which limits peoples' flexibility, creating more pressure on housing near train lines and stations, etc.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by brandur on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:08PM (#14941846)
> That, presumably, is one reason supply is restricted ("fixed")

(I'm the grandparent.) Yes, this. I'm all for new construction to improve supply and a streamlined bureaucratic process so that it can happen more quickly.

Practically speaking though, you can look at any city that's had a problem with AirBnB (Berlin, San Francisco, New York, Barcelona, etc. — pretty much anywhere desirable to visit) and new stock isn't coming online anywhere close to quickly enough to counteract the market forces introduced by AirBnB. As it stands today, building is a very slow process, and it's likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:20PM (#14942244)
This is all fair and true, but then why isn't the answer "fix the outdated housing regulations that are driving rents sky high", which is likely to have a bigger impact than banning AirBnB.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by ricardobeat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:59AM (#14941802)
And if you dig into the anti-housing discourse, you'll find there are also several good reasons for that.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by Rjevski on Sunday August 06, 2017 @06:36PM (#14944081)
Like what?
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by ricardobeat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @07:23PM (#14944289)
Insufficient infrastructure - water, electricity, transport, increase in (already problematic) traffic, preserving the character of the city / neighborhoods, kicking people out of their homes, gentrification, zoning plans.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by cjalmeida on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:22PM (#14941912)
Berlin rent prices are rising because they're cheaper than most other European big cities due to its unique recent history. Prices are catching up but I doubt Airbnb has a significant role.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by sisyphusprotege on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:05PM (#14941826)
> Berlin, like most German cities, is experiencing an acute shortage of affordable homes. Rents are rising at a rate of nearly 10 percent a year, even though the city has a rent cap and has introduced one of the strictest bans on holiday apartments - many other European cities also have some kind of regulation.

From that quote I would say vacation rentals are being scapegoated. Rents are rising with one of the strictest bans on holiday apartments.

Affordable housing was a problem before AirBnB was ever conceived.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by brandur on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:17PM (#14941891)
Sure, AirBnB certainly isn't the only cause of rising rents in Berlin. The city's become an incredibly attractive place to be over the last decade, and that's almost certainly the foremost reason for rent increases.

But AirBnB is contributing something to those rising rents, and unlike the desirability of your city, it's something that you can control for.

I (along with probably most people that share a similar position) would argue that regulating AirBnB is good, but not adequate. Pretty much every large urban development in the world (SF, London, NY, Berlin, HK, etc.) is experiencing the same problem that because they're desirable they're also automatically unaffordable. We need to figure out how to put roofs over people's heads by building much more, and much more cheaply.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by user5994461 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @03:11PM (#14942905)
There are plenty of roofs for cheaper, just not in the same place everyone wants to be.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by j10t on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:01PM (#14941815)
> The problem with housing is that the supply is very fixed.

This claim seems to be the root of every anti-AirBnB argument: AirBnB rentals eat into the resident housing supply.

But this is simply solved by zoning and regulation. In any given city there is some number of residents and some number of visitors, and some number of permanent and temporary beds for them to sleep in. Yes, AirBnB shifts some of the housing stock from resident to visitor - but, if that's what economic forces are commanding then the zoning & regulation should adapt, not fight it. It's not a capacity issue, just one of allocation.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by coldtea on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:06PM (#14941829)
>The problem with the anti-AirBnB argument is it always attacks from the angle of vacation rentals eating into the resident housing supply. That's nonsense.

Not for those that suffer from it.

>There is some number of residents and visitors in any given city, and some number of permanent and temporary beds for them to sleep in. Yes, AirBnB shifts some of the housing stock from resident to visitor housing, but, that's really just a zoning and regulation problem, not a capacity issue.

Well, unless people en masse are willing to go out there and build new houses, and prefer to use them for resident renting instead of AirBnB, it is a capacity issue.

Capacity doesn't magically increase with demand in the real world. Especially if there's a big, more lucrative, sink for new capacity.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by stale2002 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:50PM (#14942770)
"Well, unless people en masse are willing to go out there and build new houses"

They ARE! But the government won't let them.

Zoning and NIMBY laws are what causes the housing crisis.

It would be fixed in 5 years if the government removed building height limits in only a few square mile areas in all the major high rent cities.

The problem of high rent prices is solved by allowing people to build a couple hundred thousand apartments in every major city.

Apartments are extremely lucrative, so any developer at all would be willing to build them.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by 762236 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:42AM (#14941735)
Although not a problem for people staying overnight, it is a problem for the people that live in the community, as it dilutes their community by taking housing units out of the rental market. The cities are popular for overnight stays because their communities made the cities attractive places. It is a negative feedback loop.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by trevyn on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:47AM (#14941755)
And industrialization diluted the agricultural way of life. The market will steamroll you one way or another.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by 1_2__4 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:01PM (#14941819)
According to neoliberalism yes. The rest of us don't believe that markets are both the best and inevitable answer to every human endeavor. Some of us even believe in weird stuff like human rights and self governance.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by Applejinx on Sunday August 06, 2017 @03:12PM (#14942913)
Indeed, it's looking like we've got some experimental evidence that markets are a poor way to deal with some kinds of things.

Plus, they're hardly inevitable: they're created by humans along with whatever rules and mechanisms they operate by, and they're administered by humans. What self-organizing features markets have are confined to a subset of what they functionally mean: they scale because they semi-efficiently find optimal answers through working on populations rather than centralized control. What does 'optimal' mean? That's sometimes in open conflict with the very rules we want to see honored.

It's a neat hack, but horribly inappropriate to some aspects of life. And we get in real trouble when we start redefining everything in life circularly, as 'what is produced by markets is optimal'.

Human extinction is an optimal market solution to some things, including maximization of capital as an abstract measure.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by TeMPOraL on Sunday August 06, 2017 @04:58PM (#14943493)
The real problem is those concerns are orthogonal. One should not think of the market as the best answer to every human endeavour - but it's also important to recognize just how powerful a force it is. Managing the market is hard - most of the time too hard for even most wealthy and powerful people.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by evanlivingston on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:04PM (#14941825)
Is that a reason to give in to the market?
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by nerdponx on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:40AM (#14941722)
It is a problem because it abuses/avoids zoning laws and is generally disingenuous, making it hard to conduct public policy and regulate markets.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by trevyn on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:44AM (#14941741)
Ah, ok, so it's a problem for some people.

It's a problem for me that regulation and zoning increases the cost of living.

Now we're even. :-)

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by nerdponx on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:31PM (#14942658)
AFAIK, uncontrolled AirBnB usage is directly contributing to rising rents in SF and Toronto. It cuts both ways.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by hendzen on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:40AM (#14941724)
It's a problem for people looking for long term rentals as landlords can make more profit by listing a unit on AirBnB.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by sisyphusprotege on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:18PM (#14941892)
That is definitely not always true, and I would say its only true in the minority of cases.

To make more money renting short term than long term you have to be in a very desirable location in a town/city with a lot of tourist traffic, and you have to keep your labor and energy costs down ruthlessly.

Most cleaning companies want $30 an hour. You need to pay $120 to do a turnover. Plus you need to buy many things and replace them regularly. And you need to pay for utilities.

Unless you can book for high prices, at least $250 a night and more like $399 a night on weekends in season, and keep the calendar pretty full, its not worth it.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by idrios on Sunday August 06, 2017 @12:50PM (#14942047)
My own personal anecdote:

I moved to San Jose last year and could not find an affordable place to live long term. I got incredibly lucky finding a place on craigslist for $600/mo but discovered one month later that it was because the landlord was kicking everyone out in another 2 months so he could give the house to his mother.

There was so much competition for places to live that I couldn't find another apartment for under $1000.

I ended up moving to an Airbnb that was $25/d. At any time I was living with 6-12 other people, host included. 14 beds total -- 4 bedrooms with 1 or 2 bunkbeds in each room and the host's (and gf's) room with a double bed, which he would occasionally share with a guest. I would have never expected that to be a good experience and would not have signed up for long-term housing like that, but I actually loved it and stayed for a year.

Point is, Airbnb lets you cram more people into a small living space than someone renting might be willing to do, so in big cities you can make the argument that though Airbnb reduces supply of housing, it also reduces demand for housing so there might be a total sum of more housing available

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by jodrellblank on Sunday August 06, 2017 @10:17PM (#14944859)
Avoid pesky renting, sanitation, fire and tax regulations to bring tenement slum housing for the 21st century - because it's profitable.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by trevyn on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:41AM (#14941727)
Is what the singularity feels like? Everything getting faster and faster, shorter and shorter term...
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by hendzen on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:58AM (#14941799)
No, that's what living in a bubble feels like.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by yalogin on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:37AM (#14941707)
Isn’t that what a family owned hotel/inn is?
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by trevyn on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:39AM (#14941719)
No, Airbnb typically lists actual, real everyday apartments, so you feel like you're living in the city like a local, not in a hotel. If you haven't tried it, it's a great feeling.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by Symbiote on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:42AM (#14941732)
On the other hand, if you're in the same building as an AirBnB rental, it may feel like a hotel.

So, from me: please don't try it.

Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by chii on Monday August 07, 2017 @01:29AM (#14945510)
That's not the real selling point of airbnb, but rather that it's much cheaper than hotels in a similar area.
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by kohanz on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:35AM (#14941703)
I agree that I don't really see what the problem is. Curious that AirBnB would deny it though. Does it hurt their brand?
Re:Airbnb dominated by professional landlords by Symbiote on Sunday August 06, 2017 @11:48AM (#14941761)
AirBnB market the idea that someone rents out a spare room/apartment for a couple of while they're on vacation. In general, this isn't something people would complain about.

The reality, of professionals renting out multiple apartments for the whole year, is when the neighbours will complain: there's the noise of 50-100 people clunking their wheelie suitcases in and out, not knowing where to take their rubbish and leaving it in the stairwell, having a noisy party, etc. Plus, a feeling of reduced security when there are unfamiliar people in the building all the time.