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Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by scotty79 on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @07:46AM (#1490675)
> Now in the end, we might look at Onoda as a fool and worse, a murder of innocent people. In the end, he was both of those things, there is no denying it.

Funny thing is that at war time being idiot murderer of innocent people is just fine. I think there should be much more footage from war zones. Maybe then people would stop looking at war as sane and sometimes appropriate option.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @08:57AM (#1490810)
Worse option: letting the other guy go to war, and you don't. Its called surrender and can be worse.
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by MichaelSalib on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @09:43AM (#1490919)
This is not always true. Almost all wars are started for "defensive" reasons and oftentimes those reasons are just lies told to drum up support for the war.

The Nazi regime convinced ordinary people that they had to fight against an internal Jewish threat. That was a lie. If ordinary Germans had let "the other guy" go to war, nothing would have happened because there was no internal threat. Likewise, if Americans had ignored the terrible threat that Iraq posed to the US in 2003, then nothing would have happened: Iraq wasn't a threat to the US. Claims that it was trying to do destroy the US or had the capability to do so were lies. Ignoring the lies is not surrender.

The first rule of honorable war fighting is to figure out which justifications are true and which are lies. A people that can't or won't do that can never be honorable since sooner or later, they'll end up exterminating lots of innocent people in a war based on lies.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by InclinedPlane on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @02:27PM (#1491846)
Whether the other guy starts a war based on a lie or not is immaterial to whether or not you are a: dead or b: living under his boot heel.

As reference: see most of human history.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by MichaelSalib on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @07:43PM (#1492811)
You miss the point. There may be cases where "the other guy" actually starts a war against us. But that doesn't seem very common. What is much more common is "the other guy" doing nothing but our own people making up lies about what "the other guy" is doing; you know, inventing a fictional war. In those cases, you're not going to end up dead or living under anyone's boot heel.
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by InclinedPlane on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @08:35PM (#1492907)
I didn't miss your point, I rejected it.
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by MichaelSalib on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @09:37PM (#1493013)
The US started a war in Iraq that has exterminated about a million human beings so far and has produced 3 or 4 million refugees. We started that war because we believed lies. If taking actions that lead to a million corpses because we were insufficiently skeptical doesn't trouble you, well, I'd guess that our value systems are sufficiently incompatible so as to make discussion impossible.

Also, I dislike sociopathy.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @11:58PM (#1493266)
Hm. Is that number pulled out of the air?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by MichaelSalib on Wednesday July 07, 2010 @12:55PM (#1494680)
No, it most certainly is not. The number is based on the Lancet 2 study which found about 650,000 excess deaths. Tim Lambert at Deltoid extrapolated the Lancet 2 excess mortality rates to about one million because Lancet 2 ended just as violence in Iraq was increasing enough to make further field work impossible. See http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/11/deaths_in_iraq_1.php for more information.

In general, Iraq Body Count is an obscene underestimate of excess deaths. IBC data comes from two sources (1) english language journalist accounts and (2) Iraqi government data. We know that (1) is absurd because when violence increases, deaths increase and reporters' presence on the ground decreases dramatically. If you read journalists' accounts of their own work in Iraq (for example, Imperial Life in the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran), you'll note that in many cases reporters simply never left the green zone. How could they possibly write stories about killings when they can't leave the green zone? We know that the data from (2) is highly suspect because much of the conflict in Iraq has been sectarian with government death squads engaged in ethnic cleansing. For example, we have evidence showing that when Shiite religious parties took control of the ministry of health after elections, they fired Sunni medical staff and imposed policies restricting the treatment of wounded Shia. If the Shia run ministry of health won't treat Sunni victims, why on Earth should we trust them to faithfully record statistics about how many Sunnis were executed by government death squads? I mean, are we normally so credulous that we accept death counts made by the government accused of making the killings?

From a scientific perspective, IBC's "analysis" is garbage and should be ignored. At the very least, you have no business citing IBC unless you understand enough about IBC's methodological flaws to explain precisely why it can only be considered a gross underestimate.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by JoeAltmaier on Saturday July 10, 2010 @05:18PM (#1504366)
Sorry, I only meant to point to reports of concrete data. I didn't know the standard of accuracy here is extrapolations on studies, speculation and politically-charged argument, istead of data reported "on the ground".
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by scotty79 on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @08:01PM (#1492845)
> honorable war fighting

One part of me gets it how war can be honorable. Thoughts about protection, bravery, planning, cunning, destruction of evil enemy. On the other hand I think that this thoughts are cultural imprintment reinforcing primal instincts embedded by evolutionary means in times way before industrial age.

Concept of honorable war in our heads is with such contradiction with any serious war fought with modern equipment that I feel that it's one of these things that made sense in early days of humanity, like seeing danger in dark barely visible shapes, but unlike those harmless artifacts when mixed with modern technology our glitch that makes us think that war can be sane misguides us into doing really harmful and dangerous things.

Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by scotty79 on Tuesday July 06, 2010 @07:45PM (#1492817)
I'm just curious. Do you have any example of country (region?) that had a real option of waging war against its enemy but chose to surrender and got worse then it would get if it choose to wage war? (by any reasonable prediction, of course)
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday July 07, 2010 @12:01AM (#1493269)
How different is that from losing? Lots of examples of that: anybody that lost to the Japanese in WWII. Anybody that lost to Germany in WWII.
Re:The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years by scotty79 on Wednesday July 07, 2010 @10:03PM (#1496208)
When you surrender then your losses should be usually lower then of that when you loose. Otherwise there would be no point in surrendering.

I'm guessing that surrendering early might often lead to much less damage than attempting to wage a war against serious opponent.