Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction

Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by grantsch on Sunday July 30, 2017 @02:34PM (#14887191)

As someone with some relevant industry experience, I can tell you that nearly 0 professional screenwriters or development executives are consciously sticking to a rigid structure as prescribed by some book. Instead, what you're seeing is the difference between after the fact analysis and the process of creation. Things like the three act structure and certain beats appearing in many movies exist because those are just natural ways to tell a story. The three act structure is, at the most basic level, just the series of beginning, middle, and end. Of course any movie has these sections by necessity and there are better and worse ways to navigate through each.

Just to be clear though, no one is sitting around talking about Snyder's beats or terminology. In the industry, the only terms you'll here from these books are discussions of the three act structure because that is so vital to this sort of material. All that said, I do think the books are a good starting point for someone who wants to think critically about story, but don't think that these are blueprints for Hollywood success. If they were, every screenwriter would be paid scale.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by jackcarter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:13PM (#14887565)

As a counterexample, see Paul Reubens on writing "Pee-wee's Big Adventure":

"I bought the Syd Field book on writing screenplays, and me, Phil, and a guy named Mike Varhol did exactly what was said in that book. I mean, exactly, right down to getting three-by-five file cards and writing each beat down and putting it on a bulletin board. We did every single thing like that. As a result, Big Adventure is extremely classical in its structure because we were literally doing it by the book. So on page thirty, Pee-wee’s bike gets stolen. On page sixty, it gets found. It’s a whole thing."

https://www.villagevoice.com/2016/03/15/pee-wees-big-friends...

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by dragonwriter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:58PM (#14887780)

> As someone with some relevant industry experience, I can tell you that nearly 0 professional screenwriters or development executives are consciously sticking to a rigid structure as prescribed by some book.

I'd like to take your word for that, but numerous other insiders have said the opposite, and also noted a significant convergence around Snyder's precise timing breakdown since the book was published.

> The three act structure is, at the most basic level, just the series of beginning, middle, and end. Of course any movie has these sections by necessity

Traditional three act structure is more specific than that, it specified in broad terms what happens in each part, and, no, it's not fundamentally essential; there are other story forms, though they are rarely used in well-funded American feature films.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by jessaustin on Sunday July 30, 2017 @03:48PM (#14887469)

To someone outside the industry, the idea that much Hollywood screenwriting follows a rigid formula seems plausible. There may be creative auteurs creating bizarre plots with delightfully unpredictable pacing, but those scripts aren't being filmed and distributed to the public.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by Boothroid on Monday July 31, 2017 @08:17AM (#14891211)

Indeed, it's getting to the point now where all TV/movies seem to be using the same tricks around pacing, creating audience involvement with characters, generating tension etc., to the point where I recognise it easily and then cannot continue watching. In contrast, and obviously I'm generalising massively but still, I find that older media doesn't seem quite so desperate to build me up into a frenzy of emotion, and seems happier to let a story develop at its own pace without resorting to shallow tricks to liven things up.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by grantsch on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:43PM (#14887706)

I mean sure, just like anything there is a certain method to writing a story. That doesn't mean that writing a movie is just paint-by-numbers like you seem to be implying. A programmer doesn't invent a new language every time she's going to write an application.

Writing a good movie is really, really challenging.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by dahdum on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:42PM (#14887702)

Would you agree they don't need to consciously stick to it, because that structure is internalized already as "the best way to write a mainstream movie"?

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by grantsch on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:45PM (#14887723)

Just to be clear, I'm not a writer. That said, there are certain structural elements one expects to see in a well-crafted story... the same way you expect to see certain things in a good program.

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Re:Heretical Things Statistics Tell Us About Fiction by ACow_Adonis on Monday July 31, 2017 @03:03AM (#14890015)

Memento, Cloud Atlas, Moby Dick, 2001 space odyssey, melancholia, American psycho...

Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I think it's more analogous to say that Hollywood is in the business of making burgers. You expect certain structural elements in burgers: buns, centre, sauce. They're incredibly popular for a reason.

The problem comes when we say burgers are basically the superset of decent or nutritious cooking.

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