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Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by empath75 on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:34PM (#14875997)
I feel like starting a business with a massive theft of other people's intellectual property isn't a great model to follow.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by CM30 on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:10PM (#14876267)
No different to starting a company that lets people get cheaper rides while avoiding taxi restrictions or one that lets you find cheaper places to stay by avoiding hotel and zoning laws.

A lot of successful startups and internet businesses are done on a 'break an awkward law first, ask for permission later' kind of way. There's a reason a common startup mantra is 'it's better to beg for forgiveness rather than ask permission'.

And yes, YouTube is another obvious example here. Wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular if it was so strict on copyright right from the start.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by mcappleton on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:46PM (#14879366)
I think republishing someone else's work without permission them is morally wrong, but offering a taxi ride is only wrong insofar as it is illegal. One is a good law protecting content creators, the other is crony capitalism. So I think there is a difference.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by kpil on Saturday July 29, 2017 @03:58AM (#14880128)
The taxi market differs between countries, but in those markets where the regulations are there to protect the riders and drivers, ie minimum wages, proper tax handling, health insurance, passenger's insurance, etc, Uber is morality wrong in just the same way.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by samlevine on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:08PM (#14876252)
It's hard to bootstrap some models without a lot of money. Even with money, it's not obvious there is a market until people prove it via piracy.

For example, Crunchyroll is the least terrible anime streaming site and they got started by stealing anime that was "stolen" by folks that wanted to put decent subtitles on shows from Japan.

They eventually hired some of the folks they were stealing subtitles from, and got licensing deals from the content owners once they had revenue. But they never would have been able to negotiate a deal if they'd have asked for permission instead of forgiveness.

It's entirely possible to imagine that another streaming company (Netflix, Hulu) would have looked at all of the great quality subtitles being produced by non-content owners and figured out that there was revenue to be had. But I fail to see how they would have seen the demand if people hadn't been stealing and making good subtitles to begin with, and producing huge numbers of stolen downloads/streams.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by tedeh on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:55PM (#14876585)
I guess a lot could be said these days about the profitability and future prospects of Spotify, but their music catalogue in the early days beta was at least partially sourced from Piratebay and other torrent sites. [1]

Considering the deals they later made with the record companies, it does indeed seem like asking for forgiveness rather than permission could be the best strategy, as was noted by some of the comments in this thread.

[1]: https://torrentfreak.com/spotifys-beta-used-pirate-mp3-files...

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by pyre on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:00PM (#14876187)
Negotiating with the record labels from the get-go before even having a popular site sounds like it would have never resulted in a profitable company. The record labels don't give two shits about whether their licensing deals are equitable. They likely would have tried to gouge the small startup, possibly preventing it from ever growing.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by stevenwoo on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:53PM (#14876570)
I agree but it worked for Spotify according this version of the company's history. http://gizmodo.com/early-spotify-was-built-on-pirated-mp3-fi...
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by aphextron on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:50PM (#14876111)
>I feel like starting a business with a massive theft of other people's intellectual property isn't a great model to follow.

This is the basis of essentially every single huge successful consumer application/website over the past decade. There's really only 3 ways to make money on the internet it seems. IP theft, advertisement, and selling physical goods.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by ebiester on Friday July 28, 2017 @05:36PM (#14877779)
4. selling to those who enable 1-3.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by yvoschaap2 on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:52PM (#14876124)
Well back in 2004 there was no way to get an actual license. Most lyrics sites claimed to be safe under DMCA or "Educational Use". Only up until the publishers stood up for themselves, the industry shifted slowly.
[dead]
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by zanny on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:17PM (#14876323)
Hey look, its the physical-goods-are-the-same-as-digital-information strawman. Haven't seen ya in a while.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by 6stringmerc on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:49PM (#14876543)
A more apt comparison is downloading an image that is still under Copyright (Mona Lisa is public domain, though photos of it may not be), getting a high quality print made at a local print shop, hanging it in your living room, and charging people $5 to come look at it.

In this example, there is a tangible personal gain from violating the intellectual property rights of somebody else.

It ain't theft, true, but it ain't a legal business model.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by wumbolad on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:17PM (#14876757)
Except he wasn't charging them to see it. He had a huge neon sign in the background that he was being paid to have in his house, and they got to see the mona lisa for free. If they happened to see the neon beer sign as well, then awesome.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by 6stringmerc on Friday July 28, 2017 @11:41PM (#14879349)
Right, intent matters, so if host-homeboy knows he can profit then he's in on the graft. Your logic reminds me of people who try to defend themselves in court without any legal background.

The outcome of your hypothesis, legally speaking, is that the person thinking they're winning is going to lose their fucking house as an accessory. Game, set, match IP infringement.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by paulcole on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:38PM (#14876901)
oh ok, that's fine then.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by paulcole on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:30PM (#14876422)
Using/taking what isn't yours isn't right. Period.

Do it if you want but don't ignore that pretty simple fact.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by xiaoma on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:49PM (#14876545)
So it goes without saying that you're not one of those people who has committed the monstrous act of singing Happy Birthday without paying to license the performance rights?

Or have you perhaps also lead a less than pure life (as viewed by the RIAA)?

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by dragonwriter on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:13PM (#14876720)
> So it goes without saying that you're not one of those people who has committed the monstrous act of singing Happy Birthday without paying to license the performance rights?

But, none of the copyright claims on that were valid so, how is that a monstrous act, even in an absolutist view of adherence to legal copyrights?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-happy-birthday-s...

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by xiaoma on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:38PM (#14876900)
This is great to see! After 80 years a key piece of shared culture is finally free. I hadn't realized this news.

It is kinda insane that it took until 2015, though. I still somehow doubt that people who get on a high horse about lyrics sites and IP waited until someone with deep pockets was able to fend off a lawsuit in 2015 to sing the song, though.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by paulcole on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:57PM (#14876595)
Yes, I have sung Happy Birthday but I don't remember starting a business making money off of it and then bragging.

Yes, I have downloaded music in the past but I knew it was wrong and never used mental gymnastics to justify it. I simply did it because I didn't want to pay. Haven't done it in about a decade though.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by xiaoma on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:45PM (#14876953)
IMO it takes greater mental gymnastics to justify the current copyright laws which extend far past the life of the author than it does to justify a lyrics site. The current law is almost exactly what Jefferson was worried about when writing about US copyright in its initial form—it locks up vast swaths of modern culture and even that of nearly a century ago.

It's absolutely crucial to understand that law and "right" from an ethical standpoint are not necessarily the same, though that is the ideal state to strive for.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by ramses0 on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:47PM (#14876098)
See YouTube, Google. I'm guessing you're right. :-)
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by giarc on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:43PM (#14876072)
It sounds like all the competitors were in the same boat at the time. Likely the issue is that no one had a license to the lyrics and the ever slow to catch up record labels weren't doing it either. So it created this space that asked for filling, even if illegally.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by sputknick on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:42PM (#14876061)
Serious question: is this theft of IP? I know if a songwriter writes a song, you need to license it in order to perform it for profit, but are the actual lyrics intellectual property?
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by Isamu on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:51PM (#14876120)
Excerpt from https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ50.pdf :

"The copyright law of the United States provides for copyright protection in “musical works, including any accompanying words,” that are fixed in some tangible medium of expression. 17 U.S.C. §102(a)(2). Musical works include both original compositions and original arrangements or other new versions of earlier compositions to which new copyrightable authorship has been added.

"The owner of copyright in a work has the exclusive right to make copies, to prepare derivative works, to sell or distribute copies, and to perform the work publicly. Anyone else wishing to use the work in these ways must have the permission of the author or someone who has derived rights through the author. note: Copyright in a musical work includes the right to make and distribute the first sound recording. Although others are permitted to make subsequent sound recordings, they must compensate the copyright owner of the musical work under the compulsory licensing provision of the law (17 U.S.C. §115). For more information, see Circular 73, Compulsory License for Making and Distributing Phonorecords.

"Copyright Protection Is Automatic

"Under the present copyright law, which became effective January 1, 1978, a work is automatically protected by copyright when it is created. A work is created when it is “fixed” or embodied in a copy or phonorecord for the first time. Neither registration in the Copyright Office nor publication is required for copyright protection under the law.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by logfromblammo on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:04PM (#14876217)
Lyrics are copyrighted. Musical scores may be separately copyrighted. Individual performances or recordings of music and lyrics together may also be separately copyrighted.

Typically, the latter is pursued by recording companies, because that is the IP they own or exclusively license. The rest is rarely handled by the individual rights-holders, as they usually just let ASCAP or a similar organization handle the business and litigation end, and just cash the royalty checks.

Licensing the lyrics should be a whole lot cheaper than the music or a specific recording. So it would not cost a lyrics site as much to be fully legit as it would for a music streaming site. Likewise, it may cost less to license a cover band to perform something than to license the recording made of it by a famous group, if the song was not actually written by them. This is why ABC's Dancing With the Stars uses so many covers, but obviously still uses recognizable recordings where Disney already has or can cheaply obtain a performance license.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by bdcravens on Friday July 28, 2017 @04:07PM (#14877119)
> Likewise, it may cost less to license a cover band to perform something than to license the recording made of it by a famous group, if the song was not actually written by them.

You could even pay the original artist to perform it. The recording is what's licensed, not all performances by that artist. On Spotify I've seen quite a few older artists re-recording their old hits, presumably because they get more money if they themselves own the license to their own cover.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by paulcole on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:09PM (#14876262)
I'm not sure how it wouldn't be. How would this differ from publishing an author's novel on your website? Or more closely related, a poet's work?
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by sputknick on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:07PM (#14876672)
That makes sense, I didn't think of it like that. I was thinking that since the value is in the performance, that that's where the protection would be.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by real-hacker on Friday August 04, 2017 @01:12PM (#14930155)
"Property" is becoming an obsolete concept. Read Paul Graham's essay 'on property', he explained it very well.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by Hydraulix989 on Friday July 28, 2017 @01:54PM (#14876141)
Most very successful businesses had to bend the rules a bit to get where they are at.
Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by candiodari on Friday July 28, 2017 @04:15PM (#14877188)
Most very successful businesses are government monopolies or oligopolies, and are the result of the state continuously interfering on their behalf over a period of decades or more. Sometimes multiple times. At least here in France.

The really big companies are France Telecom/Orange, GDF/Suez, Total, BNP Paribas, Sanofi, EDF and Societe Generale, maybe Renault. All fit this pattern. None are the result of innovation, the closest would be Sanofi and Renault up until WW1.

I have not yet been to another country where it was different.

Re:I’ve supported myself for the past decade with my side pr... by xxSparkleSxx on Friday July 28, 2017 @02:27PM (#14876403)
yep, and as a pleb I don't know if I should hold onto my ethics or say fuck it and follow in their footsteps.