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Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by paul_milovanov on Sunday July 23, 2017 @04:19PM (#14834175)
>> The growth of “zero-sum” activities may, however, be even more important. Look around the economy, and it’s striking how much high-talent manpower is devoted to activities that cannot possibly increase human welfare, but entail competition for the available economic pie. Such activities have become ubiquitous: legal services, policing, and prisons; cybercrime and the army of experts defending organizations against it; financial regulators trying to stop mis-selling and the growing ranks of compliance officers employed in response; the huge resources devoted to US election campaigns; real-estate services that facilitate the exchange of already-existing assets; and much financial trading.

>> Much design, branding, and advertising activity is also essentially zero-sum.

That's a remarkably short-sighted view of economic activity.

A functioning legal system is critical for the operation of an economy. Without one, markets don't work and neither do various sophisticated financial services we enjoy (insurance, loans, mortgages, etc).

Financial fraud, regulation & policing are the cost of having a dynamic and sophisticated financial system. It's had a tremendously positive impact on our societies and individual lives, which we're almost completely oblivious of.

Ditto every other item in his list.

If you think that some popular, ubiquitous sort of human activity creates no genuine value to individuals or the society, you probably haven't thought about it long enough.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by krona on Sunday July 23, 2017 @04:45PM (#14834284)
Bang on. New instruments of finance/investment (public companies, bonds and shares) and the legal institutions that arose at that time to protect investors were one of the most important catalysts of the industrial revolution, possibly the most important driver of productivity growth in the history of mankind.

You could argue that eventually the finance industry becomes so large that it reaches equilibrium within the markets it operates (Mervyn king has suggested the same about the City of London), thus becoming zero-sum, but this nuance is completely absent.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by matt4077 on Sunday July 23, 2017 @05:47PM (#14834586)
The article doesn't require _all_ financial services, legal services, advertisement etc. to be zero-sum. It only needs some aspect, of some of these activities, to be zero-sum.
Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by paul_milovanov on Sunday July 23, 2017 @07:04PM (#14834842)
It sure claims that they're all mostly useless though.
Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by dleslie on Sunday July 23, 2017 @04:56PM (#14834342)
Yes, clearly Adair Turner hasn't thought about this much. /s

Or perhaps you should consider that in a zero-sum game individual agents can produce great value, while the system as a whole does not.

This is a macroeconomics article, after all.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by thaumasiotes on Sunday July 23, 2017 @05:19PM (#14834452)
> Yes, clearly Adair Turner hasn't thought about this much.

The staggering assertion that "facilitat[ing] the exchange of already-existing assets" is an activity "that cannot possibly increase human welfare" suggests that you're right about this, however much you may have thought you were being sarcastic.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by dleslie on Sunday July 23, 2017 @06:06PM (#14834673)
Solely moving assets within the system does not create growth of the entire system. No new assets have been created in the exchange.

One group digs the holes and the other fills them, and it can appear that productivity for both is good while the system doesn't particularly make any headway.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by paul_milovanov on Sunday July 23, 2017 @07:01PM (#14834834)
Suppose I have peanuts and you have shellfish.

I don't care for peanuts (in fact, I'm allergic to them). The subjective value that I assign to them is zero (or negative)

Same thing, you don't care for shellfish (religious reasons).

Suppose we move around existing assets -- trade peanuts for shellfish.

All of a sudden both of us have something we can use, of non-zero subjective value (the only kind of value that exists, btw).

To say that no value has been created in the transaction is quite simply to ignore the basic universal motivation for trade.

Every voluntary transaction happens only because both parties believe that they're getting the better part of the deal (I'd rather have shellfish than peanuts).

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by dleslie on Monday July 24, 2017 @12:23AM (#14835866)
That's not the sort of activity the article was taking aim at; the author's example of regulators and compliance officers was appropriate, I think. The agents may have come to act in a manner where much of the labour that each engages in is justified by the actions of the other, and so the bulk of their combined labour cancels itself out and we have little increased utility on the whole. Whereas your trade of shellfish and peanuts don't behave in this manner.
Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by thaumasiotes on Monday July 24, 2017 @01:30AM (#14836090)
The quote I pulled was the guy complaining about real estate agents who do nothing but facilitate ownership transfers. The peanuts/shellfish trade is precisely analogous.
Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by thaumasiotes on Sunday July 23, 2017 @09:18PM (#14835311)
> Solely moving assets within the system does not create growth of the entire system.

This is completely false. As I've pointed out elsewhere, the possibility of trading existing assets means that one entity (say, a farm) can produce more of a good (say, rice) than it can directly consume. Without exchanging goods, this would make no sense, specialization of labor would be lost, and the production of all types of goods would crater.

Re:Is Productivity Growth Becoming Irrelevant? by dleslie on Monday July 24, 2017 @12:18AM (#14835855)
That's still a micro perspective; and besides, the farm is creating goods, rather than operating in a zero-sum manner, it is adding product to the system. Whereas the labour of individuals does not operate in this manner, and it is possible for a system of individuals to be working feverishly without meaningful change occurring. The author used the example of regulators and compliance officers as a sort of off-hand way of expressing the kind of relationship where the bulk of the labour within the system cancels itself out because it arises from agents having to respond to the actions of one another, and doesn't necessarily increase overall utility.