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Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by AnthonyMouse on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:29PM (#14774742)
This doesn't touch the real problem. Nobody intentionally creates a policy that will take $20K from someone with $40K and give it to someone with $10K. When that happens at all it's unintentional (e.g. 20 programs to transfer $1K that weren't expected to overlap) and people who discover that outcome find it outrageous.

Because that was never the problem with income inequality to begin with.

The problem isn't that one person makes $10,000 while another makes $40,000. Those people are both struggling. The problem is that one person makes $10,000 (or $40,000) while another makes $10,000,000.

Reversal never even enters into it. If you took $9,900,000 of the richer person's money and split it between 1000 poorer people, the richer person would still have more money. Even though that would imply a 99% tax rate.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by pasquinelli on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:47AM (#14777229)
"The problem isn't that one person makes $10,000 while another makes $40,000. Those people are both struggling. The problem is that one person makes $10,000 (or $40,000) while another makes $10,000,000."

No, the real problem is that the one making $10,000,000, (or ten billion), gets away with murder. Anything they do can be excused, and anything done to the one making ten thousand can be excused. Inequality as it pertains to those real social consequences of money is the problem, not who has how much of it.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by pmoriarty on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:39AM (#14775173)
"Nobody intentionally creates a policy that will take $20K from someone with $40K and give it to someone with $10K. When that happens at all it's unintentional"

Actually, plenty of revolutions intentionally did just that, and much, much worse (as in executing aristocrats and land owners and giving all of their possessions to the poor).

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by KayEss on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:21AM (#14775462)
I came here to make this very point, several large scale experiments have already been performed into rank levelling and it seems that the ranks don't stay levelled for very long, and the economic disruption caused takes a long time to settle out.

Whether that leaves the countries better or worse in the mid-term than places where the levelling wasn't done (Russia, China versus US, Europe) is something I'm sure can be long debated.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by ronilan on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:47PM (#14774795)
> This doesn't touch the real problem.

Well, that.

But also the real real problem: Economic professors making up social theories by conducting a "simple experiment using a game" (and childish slides).

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by Kenji on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:43AM (#14776574)
>The problem is that one person makes $10,000 (or $40,000) while another makes $10,000,000.

Explain to me, how is that a problem. Suppose someone invents a method to make lots of clean renewable energy very cheaply. They make a company and earn $10,000,000. Did they not deserve the fruit of their labour? Is that a problem?

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:02AM (#14776640)
Ignoring the 10,000 externalities your scenario completely ignores, why should such a person enjoy any more compensation than any other job? Everyone is enjoying the "fruits of their labour" from their wage. What makes you think this deserves more compensation?
Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by falcolas on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:49AM (#14776895)
> What makes you think this deserves more compensation?

The idea that we live in a meritocracy, and intelligence and novelty are rewarded more than being a corporate drone.

We don't live in a meritocracy, but it's an ideal that many (probably a lot of folks who work in startups) would rather push towards: replace the "lucky" rich with the "deserving" rich.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:58AM (#14777290)
> The idea that we live in a meritocracy, and intelligence and novelty are rewarded more than being a corporate drone.

But this argument assumes that financial incentives actually encourage and yield good work. Studies have shown this to be false. When you provide monetary incentives to achieve a goal, the outcomes are worse than the outcomes from people who pursued the same goals for no financial incentives.

Without financial incentives, people do work that gives them purpose and meaning, which ends up helping other people more than any financially incentivized goals.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by Kenji on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:23AM (#14777091)
> What makes you think this deserves more compensation?

They deserve more compensation because their work is worth more. It is that simple. Not everyone produces the same amount of value - in fact, how much value people produce at work usually diffes by a lot!

Someone who shovels dirt by hand moves less dirt in a year than one person with machines in a day. The idea that everyone produces equal value is not only ludicrous, it is deeply toxic and removes any incentive for individuals to excel and solve problems in a productive and creative way.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:03PM (#14777322)
> Not everyone produces the same amount of value

Agreed.

> They deserve more compensation because their work is worth more. [...] removes any incentive for individuals to excel and solve problems in a productive and creative way.

How does that follow from your premise above? It seems you're also assuming that only financial incentives motivate people to do good work. Do you actually believe that's true? Because psychological studies have shown that people who things for financial incentives actually perform worse than those who do them for non-financial reasons.

So frankly the evidence doesn't support the premise that financial incentives are useful. So you have to justify that they are somehow necessary.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by golemotron on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:45AM (#14776867)
Envy is the real problem. It has serious health effects [1]

[1] http://charris.ucsd.edu/articles/harris_salovey_2008.pdf

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by ameister14 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @11:21AM (#14777081)
If you have an opportunity to make money, it can be a great motivator to take risk and innovate. Without that increase in compensation, the risk/reward calculation changes, making it less likely to justify innovation.
Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:00PM (#14777306)
> If you have an opportunity to make money, it can be a great motivator to take risk and innovate.

Artists don't have a financial motives. They're often poor, and yet they continue to pursue their art. People will do things that give them purpose and provide them meaning, that will never change. But if the financial incentive is removed, you won't crowd the field with people whose only purpose is to make money.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by ameister14 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @12:08PM (#14777360)
I've been involved with the art world since I was a child, and I can tell you that artists definitely have financial motives. It's not the only thing motivating them, but it plays a role.

People don't just have one motivation, you see. If I have a desire to do something but it isn't strong enough to follow through, other factors can motivate me to complete the goal.

Sure, some people will starve for art. Most of the time, that's not because they desire to become as skilled as possible, but because they desire social and moral superiority and associate poverty with status and acceptance in their community. I don't personally see that as any greater or worse than pure profit motivation, and see it as much worse than a motivation to earn money in order to accomplish other goals, such as feeding, sheltering and clothing family.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:23PM (#14777769)
> If I have a desire to do something but it isn't strong enough to follow through, other factors can motivate me to complete the goal.

Agreed.

> I don't personally see [social standing motives] as any greater or worse than pure profit motivation, and see it as much worse than a motivation to earn money in order to accomplish other goals, such as feeding, sheltering and clothing family.

But we're talking about financial rewards that far exceed what's needed to feed, shelter and clothe your own family.

You initially mentioned the risk/reward calculation, and rewards certainly affect it, but suppose instead of incentivizing via rewards, we remove the disincentive of risk. You no longer have the exorbitant rewards attracting people who are just after money, but you still encourage innovation for those who have insufficient motive absent high rewards given the risks.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by ameister14 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:57PM (#14777956)
Sure, but I'm saying that the social reward system and the profit reward system are roughly equivalent in my mind, while the necessity one is superior to both.

If you remove the risk, that changes the calculation too, definitely. That's much harder to do, though, than increasing the reward opportunity or the perception of reward opportunity. Do I believe it is worthwhile to move in that direction? Certainly, but it's frankly impossible to administrate that solution today.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by naasking on Sunday July 16, 2017 @09:58AM (#14781975)
> If you remove the risk, that changes the calculation too, definitely. That's much harder to do, though, than increasing the reward opportunity or the perception of reward opportunity.

I'm not convinced that's true. It hasn't really been tried, and we know that financial incentives make people's work worse through psychological studies, so it's frankly worth trying for that reason alone.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:32PM (#14779091)
> Explain to me, how is that a problem. Suppose someone invents a method to make lots of clean renewable energy very cheaply. They make a company and earn $10,000,000. Did they not deserve the fruit of their labour? Is that a problem?

If the typical person making that amount of money had invented "a method to make lots of clean renewable energy very cheaply" then it wouldn't be a problem, but those aren't the people we see making that kind of money.

And when the money is made from dirty energy, or high frequency trading, or executives who deny employee raises to boost profits, or just good old fashioned interest on inherited wealth, people start to wonder what everybody else is getting in exchange for keeping society structured in a way that causes those people to make that amount of money.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by RangerScience on Friday July 14, 2017 @11:42PM (#14774939)
Well, right, but now you've got the issue of perception. The message I got from the whole "1%" slogan was just this: That it's not even close.

If I think it's close, then what the researched observed may kick in, even if it's no where near close.

Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by KekDemaga on Friday July 14, 2017 @11:29PM (#14774905)
Not if the poorer people start with $101.
Re:Rank-reversal aversion may be causing more social problem... by yorwba on Friday July 14, 2017 @11:42PM (#14774941)
10,000,000 - 9,900,000 = 100,000

9,900,000 / 1,000 = 9,900

The 1,000 people would need to start with more than $90,100 before rank reversal occurs.