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Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by Someone on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:54AM (#14759270)
They wouldn't do it if there weren't a profit.

Say you're an airline, and you notice that all your planes get fully booked, but on every flight, 2 to 5 passengers do not turn up or miss their flight.

That means that you can easily sell 2 extra tickets for each flight. That's free money (as good as; fuel consumption will go up a tiny bit)

Now, there's the rare case where too many passengers turn up. So, you pick out a college student or backpacker who is happy to take a flight an hour later in exchange for money, a free ticket for another flight, or whatever. That costs you a bit, but as long as it is rare enough, the net result still is extra money, and, ideally, everybody is happy.

Airlines have departments that compute the ideal amount of overbooking.

So, how can it be legal? That's easy; if you book a flight, you accept terms and conditions, and no government has seen reason to make it illegal.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by nthcolumn on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:09AM (#14761909)
It should not be legal and probably isn't really. It is a basic morality thing? Contracts should be fair. If you book a flight then it should be clear your booking is subject to availability. If it is subject to availability then to maintain the principle of contractual reciprocity you should be able to cancel without incurring a charge as you too are 'subject to availability'. Currently it is not fair. They should not be overbooking fixed seats and expect people to help them out for bribes no less to the implied 'desperate for money' college student or a backpacker. What a disgusting world view that encourages. As to those who were subjected to violence and forcibly ejected - they should be able to sue for eye-watering punitive damages in the tens of millions (money being something so dear).
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by bb611 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:53AM (#14762333)
I think the current system actually meets your criteria for fairness quite well.

First, at this point it's reasonable to expect passengers in the US to know that their booking is subject to availability in some limited number of edge cases. It's not particularly common but it's also very public knowledge that it sometime does happen.

Second, both parties have a cost to rebook - passengers pay a rebooking fee, airlines pay a bump fee (in a voucher if the passenger is foolish enough to accept that). Additionally, the rebooking fee for a passenger is significantly lower as a % of ticket cost than it is for the airline.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by opo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:46PM (#14763424)
>...First, at this point it's reasonable to expect passengers in the US to know that their booking is subject to availability

I question that. My guess is that the vast majority of the people who get a seat assignment when they book, never consider the possibility it might be taken from them. Most of the time, people are conditioned to not want to cause a scene, but I can bet no one is too happy about it when a breach of contract happens.

Airlines are unique in that lots of people go along with this. If you sign a lease to rent your house to someone and on the day they arrive with their moving truck you tell them you decided to lease it to your brother, there is a good chance you will end up in court.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by bb611 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:03PM (#14763616)
> but I can bet no one is too happy about it when a breach of contract happens.

It's very odd that you consider this a breach of contract, because these contracts are pretty heavily policed by regulators and the courts. Check every ticket you've bought, the contract of carriage includes terms specifically about overbooking.

For instance, here's United's Rule 4G:

All of UA’s flights are subject to overbooking which could result in UA’s inability to provide previously confirmed reserved space for a given flight or for the class of service reserved. In that event, UA’s obligation to the Passenger is governed by Rule 25.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by opo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:19PM (#14763777)
>It's very odd that you consider this a breach of contract,

You are partially right in the sense of the one-sided document that they impose on their customers, they reserve the right to not let you board. In the case of the United passenger (and many others that came to light after this assault) the person had already boarded. At that point, the reasons for not transporting (Rule 21) are spelled out and they don't include reasons like ("we decided to use the seat for our employee" or "a gold member wants the seat"), etc.

>...because these contracts are pretty heavily policed by regulators and the courts.

The idea of involuntary bumping should probably be viewed as regulatory capture. We don't allow that in other industries.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by e59d134d on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:01PM (#14762951)
I never knew that they overbooked flights until recently. From my perspective, it appeared obviously wrong and immoral. So never imagined that an ethical company would do this.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by rbcgerard on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:52AM (#14762323)
while no fan of the system at all, there is a certain amount of reciprocity. Either you voluntarily accept an inducement to fly at a different time or you get paid ~0-400%[1] of the one way fare of the flight you got kicked off of plus they still need to fly you there. I personally think that number is too low...

[1] https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbo...

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by baddox on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:57AM (#14760011)
I don't even see a problem with the concept, although customers should clearly be more aware of the precise terms. It's certainly no worse in principle than, say, fractional reserve banking. And obviously no one should end up with a bloody face.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by uremog on Thursday July 13, 2017 @03:36PM (#14764460)
They're already getting the profit. If the flight was fully booked and someone didn't show up, that seat was still paid for. To me, it really should have been reserved for that passenger, present or not. Reselling a no-show's seat is double dipping on profits.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by InclinedPlane on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:09PM (#14762493)
Think so? That's a naive view of business. You know what airline doesn't oversell flights? JetBlue. You know which airline doesn't turn a profit? United. Weirdly, JetBlue is profitable though.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by davchana on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:19AM (#14760092)
I am very much ready to pay a single digit percentage of ticket price in return of guarantee of no-bump seat.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by medell on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:48AM (#14761150)
I wouldn't envy the marketing and pricing analysts in that situation trying to optimize. Imagine seeing an option at checkout to upgrade to a "no-bump" seat? Or the reverse, you can opt-in to a "bumpable" seat for a discount. Actually, the latter doesn't sound so bad for casual flights!
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by ISL on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:48AM (#14761690)
Some airlines ask at check-in time whether you're willing to be bumped at ~$200 compensation.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by davchana on Thursday July 13, 2017 @03:56PM (#14764631)
Yes, i will opt for latter too, on few casual flights :)
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by bryanlarsen on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:04AM (#14761300)
WestJet here in Canada is currently running ads emphasizing that they never overbook their plans. The ads have been very effective and I suspect that the increased business has more than made up for any gain they could have made from overbooking.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by macintux on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:57AM (#14762374)
If everyone took that approach, the increased business would vanish and they'd all be leaving money on the table.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by quantum_magpie on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:02PM (#14766388)
Yes, but they have no right to that money in the first place, since their physical plane does not fit the extra customers. They have already got all the money available from the flight. Plus, every no-show is pure profit already since their luggage needs no handling and there's no fuel consumed for hauling them.

I guess the only way to force them out of this habit would be to make the compensation mandatory at 10x the ticket price, in cash, on the spot. And a seat on the next plane, plus free accomodation for the bumped person if the next plane is more than 8 hours away.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by brandonmenc on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:25PM (#14763209)
Depending on the numbers, I will accept some very small risk of being bumped to a later flight in exchange for cheaper tickets.

Also a bonus if overbooking helps keep the route to the rinky-dink airport in my hometown operating so that I don't have to drive in for the last leg of my holiday trips.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by Larrikin on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:51AM (#14760508)
What about those that can't afford to pay. Are their plans less important because they can't afford the no-bump class?
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by coldtea on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:08AM (#14760904)
>What about those that can't afford to pay.

That's not an argument.

Else we can ask what about those who can't afford an airplane ticket at all? Perhaps nobody should ever fly since we can't assume that these people don't have important plans either?

>Their plans less important because they can't afford the no-bump class?

No, but their purchase power is clearly less -- which is what determines what one buys (and if one can afford to fly in the first place), not the importance of their plans.

(The only place where the argument holds is in things like organ transplant waiting lists, which we don't want to turn into a market -- and we'd be less hypocritical if we extended it into general free/same-price healthcare for all).

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by estsauver on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:01AM (#14760561)
Yes? That's how things are decided in a capitalist marketplace, there's no real moral force that exists within a negotiated exchange.

The obvious answer is "chartered jet" has a 100% seat guarantee, but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by Sleeep on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:37AM (#14760730)
I really can't understand this comment. I have a friend whose dream it is to go to Japan but can't afford the cost. Should airlines lower the cost flights just so her and her family can afford to buy tickets?

Anyways, the bumping situation only would come up rarely, most oversold flights don't have to bump anyone and usually oversold flights have volunteers before they have to involuntary bump someone.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by Larrikin on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:19AM (#14760958)
The question has nothing to do with an entirely optional vacation. You've bought a ticket for a funeral, a job interview, etc. Why should it be ok for the airlines to bump you off your flight when you have bought a ticket? Just so they can make a little bit more money when people occasionally don't show up?
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by CaptainZapp on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:41AM (#14761093)
To be fair. Involuntary bumping is happening very rarely.

Airlines don't have an interest to bump passengers. At least in Europe this can be relatively costly as in up to 600EUR compensation per passenger. Add hotel rooms, multiple restaurant visits, taxis and communication costs to that. Add the image loss if this happens too frequently.

Airlines employ extremely complex math and statistical models to avoid bumping passengers, while filling the plane to capacity and mostly it works out. If it doesn't they usually find volounteers, who are willing to be bumped, provided that they are fairly compensated and provided with a reasonable alternative.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by Sleeep on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:47AM (#14761677)
What if you can't afford a plane ticket to attend a funeral? Should airlines give you one? Without overselling flights travel would cost more for everybody (at least in theory).

Job interviews are readily rescheduled if you're bumped against your will.

Airlines already have bereavement flights that give the bereaved priority and extra flexibility.

We already have regulations that compensate people who are bumped against their will so it's not in the airlines best interest to do so, it's expensive.

BTW, my mom missed her dad's funeral due to the 1981 air traffic controller strike.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by th4dv on Friday July 14, 2017 @08:32AM (#14769235)
I can't afford to buy a Ferrari, however I would really like to have one. Does my need is less important than a need of those who can afford it? Does this mean that now all Ferraris should cost (let's say) $1000?
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by e59d134d on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:57PM (#14762910)
You cannot just make up one sided terms and conditions, it would be thrown out in court.

When I buy something, I should not need an hour to read a contract.

Airlines are able to get away with this cause they haven't been challenged in courts. But once challenged, it will be deemed illegal.

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by URSpider94 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:14PM (#14763080)
That's patently untrue. The USA and other countries in fact specifically have laws and regulations covering how airlines must handle overbooking situations.

I suggest you Google "is airline overbooking legal?" Literally, the very first link returned is titled "here's why it's legal for airlines to kick you off your flight" http://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/here-s-why-it-s-legal...

Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by e59d134d on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:26PM (#14763847)
Thanks but it still didn't explain why it is legal. It just said it was standard procedure. Sure there are laws covering overbooking situation but that doesn't mean the actual idea of overbooking has gone through legal scrutiny.
Re:United Airlines piloting technology to manage the problem... by URSpider94 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:58PM (#14764110)
Here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/travel/ct-airlines-...

Not only is it specifically legal, the regulations actually state that airlines have to give passengers a pamphlet spelling out their legal rights if bumped, and how much a passenger must be compensated if they are bumped. If it were illegal, don't you think the pamphlet would say "hey, the airline can't do this to you?"

What kind of legal scrutiny are you looking for? And do you not think that, among the tens of thousands of passengers who are involuntarily bumped in a year, not one of them would have challenged this in court by now?