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Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by aphextron on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:44AM (#14725230)
The recent drone footage from Mosul is some of the most mind blowing, surreal stuff imaginable. God help anyone trapped in that city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW_F2ntQOcQ

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by AndrewKemendo on Saturday July 08, 2017 @11:34AM (#14725734)
I was there in 2010 and it was pretty peaceful. Now it's a total disaster, along with most of Iraq.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by rdl on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:04PM (#14726436)
I was there in 2005-2007 and it was peaceful at times, punctuated with violence. I can't imagine what it would be like to have lived there from Saddam days through today without being able to leave -- at least 5 big waves of violence.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by archvile on Saturday July 08, 2017 @11:39AM (#14725756)
USA Military Indistrial Complex strikes again.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by rublev on Saturday July 08, 2017 @12:37PM (#14726010)
Why is this being downvoted with explanation?
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by dasil003 on Saturday July 08, 2017 @12:54PM (#14726096)
I didn't downvote, but my guess would be because ISIS is responsible for this escalation, not the US.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by dragonwriter on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:08PM (#14726740)
ISIL (or something like it; the name/identity couldn't be predicted) as a substantial force with territory, was a foreseeable consequences of the US invasion of Iraq, the inadequate allotment of troops for occupation compared to pre-invasion expert-identified requirements, and bungling of details of the occupation like de-Baathification, particularly the wholesale and disorderly dismissal of security services.

The US (and specific US policy makers) are directly responsible for that.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Simon_says on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:55PM (#14726916)
I want to believe that this result was foreseeable. I want to believe that some people at least are wise enough to see consequences of actions. Can you point to some piece of writing explaining this prior to or contemporaneous with the US invasion?
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by laithshadeed on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:30PM (#14727279)
I suggest to you read "I Was Told to Come Alone: My Journey Behind the Lines of Jihad", Specially chapter 3 & 4. It has all the details you want.

https://smile.amazon.com/Was-Told-Come-Alone-Journey/dp/1627...

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Simon_says on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:39PM (#14727314)
I'll try to take a look at this later, but Amazon says the publish date is 2017. I'm really looking for something that prognosticates.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by acdha on Saturday July 08, 2017 @10:35PM (#14728100)
James Fallows was one of the better known journalists and he got a lot of attention:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/10/proceed... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fif...

There's a LONG list of people referenced here, including a number of military, intelligence, and foreign policy experts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opp...

A key part to understanding this is remembering that blaming it on intelligence failures was the defense which the George W. Bush administration settled on to replace their earlier failed excuses. Before the invasion started, the intelligence claims used to justify it had fallen apart and the U.K. & U.S. Senate reports noted that significant pressure was placed by the White House on the intelligence agencies to justify what they were already planning to do.

(The former Treasury Secretary noted that is was planned starting before 9/11: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/10/oneill.bush/)

The Downing Street memo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo) had a similar conclusion, quoting the Foreign Minister:

> Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy

The pattern through all of this was the White House choosing to ignore, override, or replace professional civil servants with political appointees who would produce the desired results. When the CIA and other analysts would not support those claims, Donald Rumsfeld setup a sham intelligence unit which did produce the claims they later used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans).

This happened with the planning for the invasion and occupation.

When the military sensibly pointed out that they needed to plan for the occupation:

> In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said "he would fire the next person" who talked about the need for a post-war plan. > > Rumsfeld did replace Gen. Eric Shinseki, the Army chief of staff in 2003, after Shinseki told Congress that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure post-war Iraq.

http://articles.dailypress.com/2006-09-08/news/0609080088_1_...

When the State Department accurately predicted that the invasion and occupation would not be a cake-walk, it was largely ignored. As one example, that was the conclusion in 2003 — well before the full scope of the botch had become clear:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/19/world/struggle-for-iraq-pl...

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by dragonwriter on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:10PM (#14726986)
Not sure I'll be able to find the detailed stuff I saw at the time, but here's a reference to General Shinseki's estimate of the needed troops and the (manifestly false; Iraq had a long history of ethnic and sectarian militia conflict) administration response.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/mills-truth-teller-ira...

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by kukabynd on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:03PM (#14726430)
And who’s responsible for ISIS?
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by dasil003 on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:24PM (#14726550)
I'm not defending the US, but that's a dangerous slippery slope you're on that ends with no one being responsible for anything because free will is an illusion.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by 1001101 on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:02PM (#14726717)
Your attempt to short circuit any rebuttals with infinite regress aside, this didn't happen organically or spontaneously - humans caused this, and I can give you the names of many of them.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by kukabynd on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:56PM (#14726692)
I asked a simple question and I’m already on a slippery slope? That way any counter-argument is a slippery slope.

The logic of my question lies in the fact that the US played the biggest role in recent Middle East history. Why would a country with the biggest economy/military complex in the world bother to involve itself? This is an open question I don’t have an answer for. I’m sure that anyone in power does not do anything in altruistic nature though. That certainly includes Feds/governments.

You’re right on point though, free will is an illusion.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by blubber on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:21PM (#14726541)
Please give me name and phone number of the one person that is responsible. Thank you. I'll call him/her and tell him/her that he/she did all that.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by kukabynd on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:41PM (#14726633)
You’re overdoing it a tad, but let’s just imagine you had a number of that “evil person”. Why would you call him/her and tell he/she did all that? Wouldn’t it be pointless?

Seriously though, I’m not saying I have all the answers but let me ask a simple question. Why would the country with the biggest military industrial complex in the world be involved in the regions all over the world, especially on the other half of the planet? You don’t see soldiers from Bashkiria hanging out in your yard.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by nyolfen on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:08PM (#14726736)
so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS? the islamist militants from MENA, the saudis funding wahhabist madrassas abroad, the gulf monarchies giving arms and funding, the former iraqi ba'athists that make up its officer corps... and instead you choose an entity directly fighting ISIS? why is that? almost as if you have ideological blinders on...
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by kukabynd on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:50PM (#14726906)
I don’t know all the details, I just see arguments from both sides and want to explore the possibilities so that I have a rational non-biased opinion anyone can have. I’m not from the US nor from the Middle East. I’m not religious nor in support of anything close to it.

All the information I consume is not necessarily true nor fact-based. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. My point is that we don’t know 100% of the information as any information might be false. No channel, source, a journalist is 100% trustworthy nor bias-free. Thus, my only choice is to think about the global picture by consuming and sharing my thoughts based on both true and false news.

So, blinders off.

---

You say that “entity” fights ISIS. Why do you say that? What’s your take in this? Do you personally support that war? Is it because you read/saw it somewhere or personally went to war? Let’s imagine you did go to war. Did you lay out the orders or followed them? These are rhetorical questions.

I read articles about how the US is the one doing the bid in stopping terrorism, but I also read articles on how the US is sponsoring state terrorism. I heard what the UK officials say, but I also listened to what Iran officials have to say. I read that the US sells billions worth of military stuff to Saudi Arabia, but I also saw that Saudi Arabia might be sponsoring ISIS.

Where’s the truth?

---

Let’s just consider the possibility that both of our arguments are right as in “ISIS is sponsored by local partisan groups with finance coming from the US”.

Where does that leave you and me? Nowhere. We are simply watching the game those in power play. To hope that any of our governments care about us is a fool’s errand. We are simply economical units and numbers in their vote ballots. The same as citizens of Iraq and Syria. Look what happened to them. It can happen to any of us. The goal is to be prepared and have an “Exit”, that’s all I’m interested in.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by manicdee on Sunday July 09, 2017 @10:21PM (#14732974)
The US deliberately caused a power vacuum and did nothing to fill it.

If I drop an egg on the ground, can I blame the egg for cracking? If I rest an egg on an uneven bench top, and it subsequently rolls off the bench and splatters on the floor, who is to blame: the egg, gravity, or the floor?

If I give a suicidal person a gun when the rest of the community has been actively preventing that person getting a gun, and openly told me not to give the person a gun, who is most directly to blame for them killing themselves using that gun?

If I leave food on the kitchen bench after Mum told me to put it away, who is to blame for the ant infestation in the kitchen: the ants, my Mum or the pest eradicator?

It doesn't matter that we came back and tried cleaning up the mess later.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Kevve on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:12PM (#14726993)
>so why are you blaming the US specifically and not any of the disparate partisan groups that directly built ISIS?

Perhaps because there are more US government supporters than ISIS supporters browsing this website?

And while it seems we pretty much all agree that ISIS are bad guys, not that many Americans appear to be bothered by the fact that the politicians they voted for are bombing other countries at will.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by jokoon on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:59PM (#14726702)
Basically you can rewind things at a certain prison where many islamist insurgent were kept, including al baghdadi. This prison was managed by the Iraqi or I don't remember who.

To say that the invasion of Iraq did not fuel the escalation in Syria is a little naive.

There is an endless debate between keeping Saddam Hussein in power and letting Iraq slowly reconstruct itself, and removing him and letting all the bad stuff loose.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by afarrell on Saturday July 08, 2017 @03:10PM (#14726748)
Many, but I'd like to add Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot to the list of names we're considering.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by nerdponx on Saturday July 08, 2017 @12:15PM (#14725908)
I've been watching live combat footage on the Internet. War is an astounding phenomenon.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by rattray on Saturday July 08, 2017 @01:08PM (#14726171)
where is that available?
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by nerdponx on Sunday July 09, 2017 @10:00AM (#14729767)
YouTube, for a start.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by the_cat_kittles on Saturday July 08, 2017 @12:57PM (#14726113)
anti refugee sentiment is so unconscionable, what the hell world do we live in
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Simon_says on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:04PM (#14726965)
Please at least make an attempt to try to understand the other side. When any immigrants come, they change the country they immigrate to. With these particular refugees, they're refugees in no small part because of shortcomings their home culture has. It's not evil to want to preserve your own culture in the face of this. You can feel empathy for the people trapped in a hellish warzone just as you can feel empathy for the girl raped by migrants. The refugee debate is not good-vs-evil; it's competing virtues.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by aagha on Sunday July 09, 2017 @02:04PM (#14730892)
However, it is evil to colonize people, use your economic, military and political might to support corrupt and tyrannical leaders for your economic (and military and political) gain and then be upset that the very people you helped subjugate/oppress and/or create an environment in which life and liberty is impossible shouldn't then be able to seek asylum.

Wake up. The political situation in Northern Africa, the Middle East and the Sub-Continent is DIRECTLY the result of Western actors going back over a hundred years and continuing today.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by NegativeLatency on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:21PM (#14727028)
You can simultaneously preserve your own culture and let people have a place to live.

Bringing up incidents of rape in the abstract like that is unwarranted and inappropriate in the context of the point you're trying to make.

Think about how you'd feel if you were in the situation of migrants/refugees.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Simon_says on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:04PM (#14727190)
You can't perfectly preserve your culture when you let in immigrants on the scale that, say, Germany is. It's sort of a sliding scale; the more you let in, the more you change. Europe will be changed for this.

As you should be able to tell from my earlier comment, I do empathize with the migrants. It's a shitty situation, and were I in one of these war-torn country, my top priority would be getting my family out of there. But the laws and immigration policies of Western countries are crafted by the current citizens and should be moulded to their benefit, not a universal altruistic ideal. By my interpretation, that would be limiting immigration to a number that can be reasonably integrated to the host culture. Immigration to Europe currently far exceeds this.

I'm sorry if my mentioning rape offends, but I don't think we can have an encompassing discussion of migrants without at least mentioning it. I could have also mentioned migrants' attitudes towards women, LBGTs, freedom of speech, or freedom of religion. These are not views I want any sizable number of people in my democracy holding.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by reitanqild on Saturday July 08, 2017 @06:16PM (#14727458)
Defending you here:

I too feel strongly for the refugees.

I'll be happy to pay more tax if it helps solve the problem.

However I see Merkels let-them-come attitude as dangerous feel-good politics.

Why?

1. Because moving that many people around creates dangerous (for us and them) conflicts.

2. Because for every refugee we help in Europe we let down 100 in the middle east. Why? Because it costs enourmously much more to help people here than to help them down there.

So - IMO - today's feel-good let-them-come policy should be replaced with a targeted approach aimed at helping them where they are or in neighbouring countries.

As I said I'll be happy to pay more a little more tax for this.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by the_cat_kittles on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:48PM (#14727130)
this is not wrong, but to me, its out of scale. tons of people are getting injured, dying, and unable to live anything resembling a normal life. i just think the need to address that is much greater than the risks you outline. i think we (the usa) can certainly do more to help refugees before that is thrown out of balance.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Simon_says on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:06PM (#14727204)
I guess thanks for not calling me evil.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by stinos on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:17PM (#14726519)
Not sure why you got some downvotes. Maybe the wording? But still.. I share your sentiments regarding other's anti-refugee sentiments: seeing things like this video, and having met and talked to actual refugees (seriously, I wonder how many of the antis actually did that? Or would even want to?) and having heard what they went through, it is painful to see others shouting refugees aren't welcome (or worse). Ok I get it, it is not always practical and sometimes even problematic to allow thousands in your country, and yes they have a different culture, and yes some of them might not be on the run for actual war. But my feeling of compassion for their problems, which I as a 'standard' western can only begin to feel related to (e.g. how many of use even ever came close to an actual proper bomb, or the constant fear for it?), is still too big to jump on that bandwagon.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by the_cat_kittles on Saturday July 08, 2017 @02:40PM (#14726628)
yes. sometimes i wonder... is the magnitude of the suffering that refugees are trying to escape so great that its just lost on people? its impossible to relate to for some people like me. the fact that i was shaken by watching these war videos is evidence of this, perhaps. so maybe some of us just dont empathize at all because the truth is too painful. then its easier to say there will be lots of problems so lets just not bother. i guess its incumbent on all of us to remind each other what i think the truth is.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by reitanqild on Saturday July 08, 2017 @06:29PM (#14727503)
I hope I'm not to special but I'm in the position where I'll happily do something for those people (e.g. pay more taxes so we can help them, or give my xbox to the local refugee center - actually I did that : - )

I still think we should close the borders and focus on helping the neighbouring countries handle the situation.

Why would a person who care enough to

- want to pay more to help refugees and

- want to help the refugees who are already here

want to do that?

In my case simply because todays solution is very suboptimal:

It creates dangerous situations for refugees (paying huge amounts to criminals to be smuggled across Europe, crossing the Mediterranean in inflatable boats etc etc.)

It creates problems here as well. Lets not understate that either.

And last but perhaps not least: we are letting down the people who are hit hardest by spending the money on those who have the resources to cross Europe already instead of helping neighbouring countries.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by Kevve on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:42PM (#14727100)
Moralizing is cheap. How about you stop voting for politicians who keep bombing and destabilizing countries and producing more refugees?
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by the_cat_kittles on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:45PM (#14727114)
i do, and i hope other do too. its hard to know who is going to do what when people lie to get elected, but i do my best.
Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by pinaceae on Saturday July 08, 2017 @04:10PM (#14726987)
The one upside is that all those suicide attacks slowly wipe out all young men mentally unstable enough to do this.

Will be interesting to see if long term certain psychic diseases (bi-polar, depression, etc.) get less prevalent on the Arabic peninsula.

Re:Photos of Mosul 2017 by aagha on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:56PM (#14730867)
You're (likely incorrectly) assuming that the rate of extreme radicalization is lower than the rate of annual suicide attacks.