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Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by catern on Thursday July 06, 2017 @06:01PM (#14714299)
Let me take that one step further:

>processes, users, containers and virtualization are all essentially the same thing.

...and so are modules/objects/whatever your language of choice calls them. Abstraction boundaries, to be precise. Abstraction, security, and type-safety, are all very closely related.

These language-specific mechanisms for isolation are recursive - trivially so. And language runtimes and compilers make security cheap - so cheap that it's ubiquitous.

Processes, users, containers and virtualization all rely on an operating system for security, which in turn relies on hardware features. Specifically, virtual memory and privileged instructions. And those hardware features are slow, and more importantly: they're not recursive!

But hardware-based isolation does have one key advantage over language-based isolation: It works for arbitrary languages, and indeed, arbitrary code.

I completely agree that recursive isolation is necessary. We need to figure out rich enough hardware primitives and get them implemented; or we need to migrate everything to a single language runtime, like the JVM.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by btrask on Thursday July 06, 2017 @06:30PM (#14714495)
Great point. The JVM tried for this position and failed IMHO (I think it abstracted too much). Now the browser is slowly honing in on it, and it might succeed (mostly due to sheer inertia). As opposed to the JVM, I like to call the ultimate goal the "C Virtual Machine" (just process isolation++).

I think moving isolation out of hardware is really important (both to make it recursive and portable). NaCl is an interesting step in that direction. If you could use something like it to protect kernelspace (instead of ring 0), syscalls could be much, much faster.

There's another problem with language-based isolation: it makes your language/compiler/runtime security-critical. Conversely, NaCl has a tiny, formally proven verifier that works regardless of how the code was actually generated, which seems like a much saner approach.

I'll also say that I don't think it's reasonable to expect every object/module/whatever within a complex program to be fully isolated (in mainstream languages at least). There's no need for it, and it will have too much overhead (in a world where objects in many languages already have too much overhead). Better to start relatively coarse-grained (today the state of the art is basically QubesOS), and gradually improve.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by nickpsecurity on Friday July 07, 2017 @11:21AM (#14719019)
"NaCl is an interesting step in that direction. If you could use something like it to protect kernelspace (instead of ring 0), syscalls could be much, much faster."

It's actually partly inspired by how old security kernels work mixed with SFI. The first, secure kernels used a combination of rings, segments, tiny stuff in kernel space, limited manipulation of pointers, and a ton of verification. Here's original ones:

http://www.cse.psu.edu/~trj1/cse443-s12/docs/ch6.pdf

A Burroughs guy who worked with Schell et al on GEMSOS and other projects was the Intel guy who added the hardware isolation mechanisms. They were originally uninterested in that. Imagine the world if we were stuck on legacy code doing the tricks no isolation allows. Glad it didn't happen. :)

Eventually, that crowd went with separation kernels to run VM's and such that market was demanding. They run security-critical components directly on the tiny kernel.

https://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/papers_ps/nizza.pdf

The SFI people continued doing their thing. The brighter ones realized it wasn't working. They started trying to make compiler or hardware assisted safety checking cost less with clever designs. One, like NaCl and older kernels, used segments to augment SFI. Others started looking at data flow more. So, here's some good work from that crowd:

http://dslab.epfl.ch/pubs/cpi.pdf

https://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~santosh.nagarakatte/softbound/

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

So, have fun with those. :)

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by ramses0 on Thursday July 06, 2017 @08:13PM (#14715006)
https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

...this is extremely relevant to what you're saying. A talk worth watching.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by pjmlp on Friday July 07, 2017 @01:04AM (#14716209)
I don't think I would call JEE and Spring a failure.

They mark the turning point I stopped worrying about UNIX deployments.

An application server has all the features I care about from a container, including fine grain control over which apis are accessible to the hosted applications.

It doesn't matter if the application server is running on the OS, an hypervisor, container or even bare metal.

Back in 2011 we were already using AWS Beanstalk for production deployments.

Also OS/400 is like that, user space is bytecode based. For writing kernel space native code, or privileged binaries you need the appropriately called Metal C compiler.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by nickpsecurity on Thursday July 06, 2017 @10:18PM (#14715542)
It's been done:

http://www.crash-safe.org/papers.html

https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/

The latter runs FreeBSD on a FPGA. There's others that use crypto to do similar things with sealed RAM. What we need isn't tech to be invented so much as solutions to be funded and/or bought. Neither most suppliers or demand side want to make sacrifices necessary to get the ball rolling. Most prototypes are done at a loss by CompSci people. There's a few niche companies doing it commercially. High-assurance security w/ hardware additions is popular in smartcard market for example. Rockwell-Collins does it in defense with AAMP7G processor but you bet really low volume in orders. Price goes up as a result.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by catern on Friday July 07, 2017 @12:12AM (#14715978)
"It's been done" and "What we need isn't tech to be invented so much as solutions to be funded and/or bought." are somewhat dismissive overstatements.

If we had a way to implement a capability-secure runtime on Linux on Intel CPUs, in a way that improved performance rather than making it worse, and was straightforwardly usable with existing programs, then we could make a ton of progress and easily be commercially successful.

But that is technologically difficult. Maybe we can still figure it out, though. Or maybe we just need to figure out the right trade-offs to get something viable out the door and widely used.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by nickpsecurity on Friday July 07, 2017 @10:47AM (#14718736)
"in a way that improved performance rather than making it worse"

This part is not realistic if it's apples to apples. Performance will always drop because the high performance came specifically by doing unsafe things that enable attackers. Adding checks or restrictions slows it down. The question is whether it can be done without slowing things down too much. I'm hopeful about this given many people are comfortably using their PC's and the net on 8-year old PC's w/ Core Duo 2's that still run pretty well. That was 65nm tech. Matching it or at least a smartphone is what I'd aim at for first run.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by catern on Friday July 07, 2017 @11:36AM (#14719180)
>Performance will always drop because the high performance came specifically by doing unsafe things that enable attackers.

No, this is not true. Strong static typing and other compile-time information can (at least theoretically) allow improving both security and performance.

For example, look at single address space operating systems. Switching between security domains is cheaper when you don't have to switch address spaces. That's an improvement to security that allows increased efficiency.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by nickpsecurity on Friday July 07, 2017 @03:30PM (#14721336)
We were talking about C code. That doesn't have strong, static typing with built-in safety. C developers also rejected things like Cyclone and Clay. So, my comment assumes a C-based platform (esp OS).
Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by pjmlp on Friday July 07, 2017 @02:17AM (#14716453)
Intel had an wonderful processor for that, iAPX 432, and they botched it.

Every time I read about it I wonder how things would have turned out, if they managed to do a proper job with the CPU.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by nickpsecurity on Friday July 07, 2017 @10:42AM (#14718698)
Don't forget i960 which had some of 432's fundamental protections with decent performance. It was used later in high-end embedded market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by dreamcompiler on Thursday July 06, 2017 @11:14PM (#14715757)
This. We know how to build secure systems, but VCs won't fund the effort unless there's profit to be made and existing software will run on it. That second criterion especially means you're going to have to dumb down either your security or your performance to the point that there's no real value added.

I've come to the conclusion that the only realistic approach to security is to begin a slow, methodical replacement of every line of C code in the Linux kernel with Rust. No VC is going to pay for that, so some other funding mechanism will be required.

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by pjmlp on Friday July 07, 2017 @02:25AM (#14716485)
Not only Rust, but every native compiled memory safe language is a good alternative to replace user space applications, specially if they aren't dependent on the usual C memory pointer optimization tricks for their use case.

Hence why you will see my schizophrenic posts regarding Go, although I dislike some of the design decisions, every userspace application written in Go is one application less written in C. And if bare metal approaches like GERT[0] take off even better.

[0] - https://github.com/ycoroneos/G.E.R.T

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by adrianratnapala on Thursday July 06, 2017 @11:47PM (#14715880)
I think modern hardware is "recursive" in the relevant sense.

In an ethereal sense sense every Turing complete machine is recursive, because by definition you can implement another Turing complete VM on it. CPUs with kernel/user separation took it further by allowing vanilla instructions to run on bare metal within a virtual world defined by the kernel. Modern CPU virtualisation features extend this to the control instructions that an OS would use.

What else can you ask for?

Re:Privileged Ports Are Expensive (2016) by catern on Friday July 07, 2017 @12:18AM (#14716006)
I actually don't know much about nested virtualization. Can it be done to arbitrary depths with modern hardware?

One issue with being "recursive" is efficiency. Ideally, running 500 levels deep would be just as fast as running at the top level. In language-based systems this can be achieved with inlining and optimization, but it's difficult in hardware, where there is much less semantic information available about the running code.