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Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by cortexio on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:25AM (#14701230)
I'm getting kinda sick of the media putting more & more non-sense in our heads instead of actual news. This is pure fantasy. They can't build nuclear reactors on Mars! The only reason why they write this article is because the topic "Mars" generates large amounts of views. News shouldn't be a bussiness :(
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by petre on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:09AM (#14701428)
They don't have to build it on Mars. A kilowatt scale nuclear reactor is small and also safer and more portable. The Russians have already sent nuclear powered satellites into space.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by cortexio on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:16AM (#14701459)
Yeah, i used the wrong word there. I meant, "put" instead of "build"
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by Sharlin on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:44AM (#14701596)
Sure they can. That's the whole point! It turns out nuclear reactors scale down surprisingly well.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by baybal2 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:20AM (#14701782)
Relatively speaking. Burnup ratios go up with size. Unless you do blended fuel-moderator designs which as I know, were never built
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by wbl on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @12:03PM (#14703545)
Triga counts as one of those iiuc.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by 8draco8 on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:35AM (#14701288)
Genuine question: If it's possible to use mini nuclear reactors in satellites then why they just can't land that thing somehow on Mars (like they did with Curiosity) and use it on planet surface to power lab?
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:54AM (#14701362)
Output, and fuels.

Thermoisotopic generators generally rely on plutonium, which is in very low supply, and generate only about 100-200We output AFAIU.

That's enough for electronics and comms on a deep-space mission, but doesn't offer a whole lot of surplus power for planetary activity. Among the reasons that lander craft are so slow-moving (they basically manage a slow crawl) is power demands, though other factors, including navigation and stress, are considerations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_...

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by avar on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @06:56AM (#14701376)

    > plutonium, which is in very low supply.
Thermoisotopic generators are a bad idea for general power generation for a colony for other reasons (they're low power, you need a lot of them), but it's not a problem that they're in low supply.

That's just because we haven't been making more plutonium recently, because we haven't needed it. We could simply make more.

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by xorfish on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:24AM (#14701494)
Pl-238 is very expensive to produce. We are talking millions/kg.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by avar on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:52AM (#14701630)
That's a trivial cost when we're talking about sending things to Mars. The Curiosity rover has around 5kg of Pu-238. NASA estimates that restarting production will cost $6M/kg[1]. The total cost of the MSL program is 2.5 billion[2]. That's $30 million out of 2.5 billion, or 1.2%.

NASA has also been buying Pu-238 from the Russians at around $1.5 million/kg[3], which would be $7.5 million for Curiosity, or 0.3% of the cost of the program.

I'm interested in deep-space exploration (but am no expert), and as far as I can tell the reason the US is running out of Pu-238 has absolutely nothing to do with cost.

It's been happening because only NASA has really wanted this, but producing it has been the purview of the military or the DOE.

So the issue has been stuck in some bureaucratic nightmare for decades, the only people allowed to produce Pu-238 didn't need it, and NASA couldn't simply spend a crapload of money to pay another agency or branch of the government to restart production due to the way money politics works, even though it was an overall good investment.

So rather than simply restart production at a trivial cost compared to what NASA otherwise spends, it's been easier to buy it from Russia.

As [1] shows there's now a real possibility that Pu-238 will run out, so the US has restarted production.

1. https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/636900main_Howe_Presentation.pdf

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Science_Laboratory

3. http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/28/nasa-wants-to-stop-buying-...

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by xorfish on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:24AM (#14701802)
The cost wouldn't be trivial for powering a mars colony.

I'm sure the demand for a colony would scale pretty fast to 100kW or more. Now we are talking about Billions.

So I think that your original point that cost for Pu-238 is not an issue for a colony is wrong.

Small reactors are a much better option as a single ton of fuel could supply a colony with a few MW for decades. You just have to make sure that the largest part is less than 37 tons so it can be transported with a Long March 9.

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by avar on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @08:59AM (#14702015)
My original point was that dredmorbius's comment that Pu-238 is in low supply wasn't referencing some law of nature, but a political decision that could be changed.

I said they were a "bad idea for general power generation", so I'm not suggesting that they be used to power a Mars colony, but rather that the reasons not to do so don't include Pu-238 being in low supply.

We also have a low supply of rockets & other infrastructure to colonize Mars, but we can simply decide to make them.

Still, I think any extrapolation of current numbers to say that Pu-238 would be categorically unsuitable for such a purpose is probably premature. Nobody's tried to produce it on a truly industrial scale, which would bring costs down. It has a half-life of around 90 years degrading at 1%/year, so once you produce it it'll power the colony for a long time.

It's also around 6% efficient at generating electricity[1], but 100% efficient at generating heat, which is a huge part of energy requirements on Mars when it comes to human habitation. The Curiosity rover generates 120W of electricity but 2000W of heat.

1. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/34203/mars-curio...

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by dredmorbius on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @09:45AM (#14702317)
There are laws of nature involved. But also of men, nations, and war.

Pu-238 isn't found in nature, but has to be synthesized. The precursor material, U-238 is the most abundant form of Uranium, which is convenient. It's also produce via neptunium-237.

The real complication is that the nuclear synthesis processes are also those used for nuclear weapons production, which makes for some serious complications.

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by avar on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @10:48AM (#14702794)
Those complications only apply to nations that don't have a permanent seat on the UN security council. There are no treaty obligations preventing the US or Russia from making Pu-238.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by cortexio on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:08AM (#14701426)
Mini reactors are useless on Mars. The power they generate is waaay to low compared to the money that is needed to bring them there. Also putting nuclear reactors on sattelites almost never happens and is VERY DANGEROUS. It's what the Soviet Union did in the 70s-90s. The last sattelite launched with a nuclear reactor was in 1988.

You have to be pretty insane to launch large amounts of nuclear material from earth in a rocket that can randomly explode in our atmosphere.

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by valuearb on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @10:37AM (#14702716)
U-238 is pretty stable.
Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by xorfish on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:21AM (#14701475)
> They can't build nuclear reactors on Mars!

That's why you build them on earth and transport them to mars.

There are some small designs such as the 4MW(el) u-battery that are small enough for a transport.

Re:NASA Revives Plan to Put Nuclear Reactors on Mars by cortexio on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:25AM (#14701502)
Read my 2 comments below. Sry for the confusion.