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Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by FabHK on Thursday June 29, 2017 @07:29PM (#14667659)
It goes both ways, though - the tacit deal is basically that the HK tycoons do not challenge the Chinese Communist Party's monopoly on power, and the CCP doesn't challenge the HK tycoons' economic monopolies.

But, all in all, I agree. As I've written in another thread: The grievances of HK's population are real: a political and business establishment dominated by property tycoons (and increasingly mainland Chinese political factions) keen on maintaining their privileged position; huge economic inequality; a slow erosion of political liberties ("salami tactic").

That all, of course, gave rise to the Umbrella Movement in 2014.

However, given that the Chinese Communist Party is not inclined to weaken its grip on power, and extremely protective of the (perceived) territorial integrity of China, I don't really see how this will end well. :-/ Here's hoping.

For perspective, BTW: In 1997, HK's GDP was about one sixth of China's (even though China has 200x the people), and HK was an important conduit between China and the world: HK's port had more volume than Shanghai and Shenzhen together.

Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478975/Shanghai-por.... )

HK used to be hugely important for China. Now, it isn't, and with rising Chinese nationalism, HK is being seen more and more like an unruly and spoiled child.

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by narrator on Thursday June 29, 2017 @08:32PM (#14667890)
>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures:

I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us.

For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic collapse, that it's an enormous bubble, that the economy can't grow without democracy, that Hong Kong needs to be a model of democracy for the rest of China, etc. This mainly comes out of the "official narrative" mouth pieces known as the New York Times and the Washington Post. Whenever I see nytimes.com in the sourcee I'm always thinking, ok what's the new angle that everyone's supposed to believe now? It would be better if they just gave the byline to someone at the State Department or the CIA.

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by FabHK on Friday June 30, 2017 @03:33AM (#14669142)
Good point. The enormous strides China has made in recent decades, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty - extremely impressive, and unambiguously good.

Other things, not so much.

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by dnh44 on Friday June 30, 2017 @09:35AM (#14670576)
The thought of a truly democratic China today should be a terrifying thought to the rest of the world. It's a risky prospect compared to the current stability and growth. I'm sure they'll grow into their own version of democracy when necessary.

And speaking of "democracy" is a two party system really all that much better or different than a one party system?

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by FabHK on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:03AM (#14670764)
I think very few people would hold up, say, the USA as a model of governance and democracy at this point. There's higher standards to aspire to.

But, yes, even a two party democracy is better than a one party authoritarian regime.

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by ionised on Friday June 30, 2017 @12:00PM (#14671564)
Why would it be terrifying if it was truly democratic?
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by dnh44 on Friday July 07, 2017 @07:27AM (#14717587)
Most of China is compromised of uneducated, ultra-nationalist peasant farmers. While they are lovely people I think it's in everyone's interest that they not dictate national policy.

The current government is IMHO doing a great job. Even on issues that they aren't great on, they are at least trending in the right direction. Why meddle and fix something that isn't broken?

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by chemmail on Friday June 30, 2017 @10:00PM (#14674893)
lol
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by ionised on Tuesday July 04, 2017 @05:44AM (#14694706)
Terrifying because they are Chinese and you are not?

Is that what your unhelpful 'lol' implies?

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by wbl on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:56PM (#14668367)
They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by vkou on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:26AM (#14668925)
The United States isn't far behind in making it illegal to report criminal behaviour. Consider ag-gag laws, consider how whistelblowers get punished.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by devdoomari on Friday June 30, 2017 @04:03AM (#14669248)
...at least US doesn't make money selling organs :(

I really like the Chinese people, but... their gov. is f*king evil mess against them

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by Cpoll on Friday June 30, 2017 @05:35PM (#14673733)
The US exploits their disenfranchised as well: see the prison system.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by SkyMarshal on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:11AM (#14671209)
>imprison those who point out corruption,

To be fair, the current Chinese administration (Xi Jinping) identified back in 2012 corruption as one of the greatest threats to the Communist party (rightly so for any government imho) and began an unprecedented campaign to crack down on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under...

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by Steko on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:05PM (#14673839)
Mostly a pretext to crush his political rivals.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by tesators on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:48AM (#14668994)
Exactly. If China wants to be a first class world power, they need to learn how to manufacture consent like the CIA.

Right now they are having a hard enough time trying to control their citizens. They won't be a superpower until they topple a few democratically elected governments first.

Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by narrator on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:10AM (#14670190)
The U.S.A has 6x the per-capita prison population of China though. It's hard for me to understand how China is such an oppressive country and yet the number of people in prison per capita is so low.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by logicchains on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:29AM (#14670278)
In China you can avoid oppression by not criticising the government. In America, you can avoid oppression by not being poor or black. The former is a lot easier than the latter.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by refurb on Friday June 30, 2017 @08:33AM (#14670307)
If your only measure of political oppression is prisoners-per-capita, I can see why it's hard to understand.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by jtolmar on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:11PM (#14672595)
Those things, while terrible, are separable from their economic progress. Unless you believe that using political dissidents as organ donors helps the economy.
Re:Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble by ak39 on Friday June 30, 2017 @05:55AM (#14669614)
The problem is that what we understand as theoretical democracy and what is generally practically applied on the ground are two philosophically different things. An anti-thesis of democracy itself.

Prof Lawrence Lessig of Harvard nails it when he calls this type of corruption of democracy as Tweedism.

Here's a quick summary of his thesis (2015): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJy8vTu66tE

Here's a longer, more academic, version (2014): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZEV7TeZBg

Both talks begin with the Hong Kong student protests of 2014.