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Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @04:42PM (#14649219)
Think about it this way, unless your research is something you could write a scientific paper on and have it published in a peer reviewed journal, it will not qualify.

That's not true at all. In the US, at least. As a tax lawyer, I've had to have this conversation quite a few times with accountants who misread the law and don't think it applies to their clients.

The US R&D credit has 4 basic requirements, and "cutting edge" is not one of them, nor has it ever been.. Generally (broadly paraphrased), it is sufficient that the R&D result in new (or improved) functionality, etc. of a business component (specific to the taxpayer), in a systemic process of a scientific, engineering, or computer-science nature.

For example, a game developer developing a new game engine would qualify for the R&D credit; as would a retail company developing an improved inventory system. (The latter is in fact one of the examples that IRS employees give at tax seminars.)

The real issue with the R&D credit isn't claiming the credit; it's supporting the amount claimed with proper and sufficient documentation. It's the documentation part that gets most taxpayers, since the R&D credit is one of the areas that the IRS still devotes resources to auditing.

Further edit: by the way, Gusto's article is about the new small business R&D credit from the Protecting Americans from Tax Hikes Act (PATH) which went into effect for the 2016 tax year. The original credit is limited to taxable income, so you couldn't use it until you had profits or if you were subject to AMT. The new credit applies against federal payroll and AMT.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by jliptzin on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:17PM (#14650452)
Let's say I pay a programmer to develop that new game engine...why wouldn't I just deduct the expense of paying the developer against my revenue? Why would I even need to look into this tax credit? The only companies I see this benefitting are those with no or negative income, but have high payroll taxes, which doesn't seem to me to be a lot of companies out there.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:31PM (#14650541)
Deduction applies to pre-tax income, and is based on your tax rate. If, for example, you have a deduction for $100, and your effective tax rate is 20%, your tax liability is reduced by $20. Deductions also generally don't carry over if unusuable.

A credit applies against your tax liability. So if you have a tax credit for $100, your tax liability is reduced by $100. Credits generally do carry over to future years to the extent unusable in the current year.

Whether a credit is preferable to a deduction depends on the taxpayer's tax situation, including whether they would be able to make use of carried-over credits in future years.

Edit: in a previous comment I said R&D credits aren't available if you don't have positive income. That's not strictly true. R&D credits only apply against actual tax liabilities, but if you don't have any taxable income the unused credits would carry over into a future year for potential use.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by Dwolb on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @07:30AM (#14653216)
This credit is unique in that it can be used against federal payroll taxes. i.e. most companies (even if unprofitable) can realize a cash benefit immediately
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by jliptzin on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @08:14PM (#14650749)
Thanks!
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by fooey on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:20PM (#14650471)
I would bet practically all software startups fall into the category of having negative income and high payroll taxes.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by sokoloff on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @08:11AM (#14653399)
In addition to the other posts, if your developer is creating a capital asset (software/IP with a useful life beyond the current tax year), you may not be able to expense 100% of their cost.

It's just like if you hire a builder to make you a rental property. You can't deduct 100% of the costs of that house in the year it's built.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by mozumder on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:40PM (#14649745)
Also, it's not necessarily a tech requirement. A restaurant developing a new menu as it tests out recipes is just as much R&D as anything else.

No idea why people think R&D needs to be cutting edge tech research...

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:21PM (#14650483)
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. The development of menu items can be a permissible R&D credit activity.

At the level of a national or regional restaurant chain, it would definitely qualify. The development of menu items for a large chain involves a significant amount of research and scientific experimentation to nail down ingredients, storage and cooking processes, etc., that meet certain financial metrics, nutritional requirements, regulatory requirements, etc.

For a one-location restaurant, or small chain, it would be a lot more difficult to qualify for R&D credits. You'd have to show that menu items were developed to meet specific predefined targets in ways that would not have been obvious without the research/experimentation activity. Flavor is an acceptable target if the flavor can be clearly defined.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by cde-v on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:47PM (#14649801)
No... one of the requirements is "research which is undertaken for the purpose of discovering information which is technological in nature"
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:25PM (#14650506)
The R&D credit is not limited to research undertaken for technological discoveries. I'm still not sure where you're getting that idea from.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by webmaven on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:21PM (#14650091)
Might a restaurant specializing in molecular gastronomy[0] devising new dishes qualify then?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_gastronomy

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:56PM (#14650662)
Generally yes. The tricky part is documenting how they qualify for the R&D credit.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by mozumder on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:43PM (#14650233)
Basically all food production is "technological in nature".
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by fooey on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:18PM (#14650458)
At my work, we specifically log hours differently if we're working on new development versus bug fixing to document our work for the R&D credit.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @11:32PM (#14651518)
Are you sure that's why? Many companies do this to differentiate between capex and opex, but it's rare that all new development would qualify for R&D credit.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by fooey on Wednesday June 28, 2017 @11:37AM (#14655022)
Yeah, we had an all hands meeting where they explained that this was the reason. We're small, and money is tight, so saving a couple hundred thousand dollars a year is a lot of motivation for people to track their time accurately.

We're basically creating a new industry niche, so it is clear R&D. It's not like we're just churning out new shopping carts sites for the customer of the week.

We're just wrapping up our Series A, which included a major investment from CAT though, so we're in a lot better shape than we were a year ago when we started the initiative to take advantage of the tax credit.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by cde-v on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:44PM (#14649779)
I agree with all but your first sentence... I think you are just underestimating what topics can have peer reviewed scientific papers written about them.

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S235197891500013X/1-s2.0-S235197891500...

I was more taking a shot at the companies who do a redesign/facelift of their website/customer portal, or a bank struggling to integrate an off the shelf trading tool into their systems.

Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by tyrw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:54PM (#14650655)
If you're agreeing with gamblor, you're doing it in a way that sounds completely different and much narrower than what they're suggesting. My take from your parent comment was "don't bother", and my take from gamblor was "this is very doable". Pretty big difference.
Re:Reduce your startup's payroll taxes through the new Feder... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:11PM (#14650412)
I'm not sure what you're getting at. The first is a clear example of a permissible R&D credit activity if it otherwise satisfies the 4 requirements, and courts have found that the second activity generally would also be permissible for R&D credits if the integration involved additional software development by the bank (though this is more of a facts-based determination).