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Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by mathieuuu on Sunday June 25, 2017 @08:56PM (#14633172)
I am amazed that in 2017, there is still people qualifying Bitcoin or Ethereum of ponzi schemes. Crypto currencies have a lot of problems (technical, economical, philosophical, ICO are insanes) but saying they are ponzi schemes is plain wrong. And it just takes 5 minutes of reading on Ponzi Schemes signs and basic knowledges of how those currencies work to understand why.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by sammyo on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:21PM (#14633315)
In many cases crying "ponzi" is likely an exclamation of "something wrong here" which your comment gives several examples. But cash, check and other instruments all have something wrong.

I'll suggest that the difference isn't that people know the details of how for example checks clear, few non-experts learn all the details, BUT virtually everyone knows where to go if there is a problem (bank branch). Most non-experts at this point in crypto currency would have no idea where to even go to investigate a problem.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by chrisco255 on Monday June 26, 2017 @11:45AM (#14637659)
It may be true today but the banking system has matured to that point over hundreds of years. There have been many instances of runs on the bank, run away inflation, worthless paper currencies like the Continental in the history of cash.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by RexetBlell on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:11PM (#14633255)
They are as much a Ponzi scheme as gold (which has almost no practical use) and ugly paintings that cost millions http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/10-ugly-piec...

If expensive ugly paintings are not a Ponzi scheme, then cryptocurrencies are not a Ponzi scheme.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by BoiledCabbage on Monday June 26, 2017 @01:38AM (#14634346)
Gold isn't a "Ponzi scheme". Even if you believe that investing in gold makes no sense, and it's a useless metal with no practical purposes, and it's a bubble waiting to burst and so on, that still doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme.

Even if all of those beliefs above were true, it still wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme. As someone else posted in here, Ponzi Scheme has a fairly specific definition which "Gold" doesn't meet.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by wc- on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:10AM (#14636469)
[Cryptocurrency] isn't a "Ponzi scheme". Even if you believe that investing in [Cryptocurrency] makes no sense, and it's a useless [tech] with no practical purposes, and it's a bubble waiting to burst and so on, that still doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme.

Even if all of those beliefs above were true, it still wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme. As someone else posted in here, Ponzi Scheme has a fairly specific definition which "[Cryptocurrency]" doesn't meet.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by libertine on Monday June 26, 2017 @01:33PM (#14638678)
Gold has a lot of practical uses.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by ShabbosGoy on Monday June 26, 2017 @03:54AM (#14634866)
Ether is more like oil - it is a fuel source used to power smart contracts, token sales, and autonomous organizations.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by istorical on Monday June 26, 2017 @01:07PM (#14638388)
Except that oil is scarce to due to the laws of nature and that gives it it's price, whereas ether is artificially scarce. You could make a new piece of software called Blether that provided the exact same service and you could instantly 'double' the supply. Whereas with oil, you can't 'magic' your way into more of the resource by deploying some code.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by peculiar on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:49AM (#14635981)
Ether is not like oil at all. You only somewhat need ETH. Nothing stops you from using ETC. Or starting your own fork (either private or public). Your contracts will work there just fine.

On the other hand, it is not likely you can deploy some magic oil machine in your closet with almost 0 investments and start producing $5c / barrel oil.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by calafrax on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:45AM (#14636721)
Yeah, just like oil, except completely useless.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by libertine on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:26AM (#14637031)
No... it's not like oil, or steel, or gold imo.

There's no way an economy can be defined by something of no practical value.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by ailideex on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:37AM (#14635064)
This analogy is not accurate.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by nathan_f77 on Monday June 26, 2017 @06:30AM (#14635628)
"gas" is actually a common term used in the Ethereum community. [1] [2]

[1] https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/3/what-is-meant...

[2] https://www.ethereum.org/token

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by DennisP on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:50AM (#14636756)
Yes but ETH and gas are not the same thing. You use ETH to buy your gas. The gas is burned up in use. ETH is paid to the miners, who can use it to pay their expenses.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by joshschreuder on Monday June 26, 2017 @05:53AM (#14635447)
What analogy would you use?
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by DennisP on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:51AM (#14636761)
It's the money you spend at the gas station to buy your fuel. The fuel is burned, the money is not.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by calafrax on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:44AM (#14636714)
AFAIK the definition of a Ponzi scheme is a fake investment where no actual investment in productive activities takes place and all profits are paid out from increasing intakes.

Bitcoin matches this definition exactly since pumping up the currency is not connected to any real world productive activity.

Ethereum has some theoretical practical uses but most of the ICO nonsense is pure Ponzi.

Defining a Ponzi can be difficult because in order for something to truly be a Ponzi scheme it must be engaged in with fraudulent intent.

Really stupid people who "invest" in really stupid things and waste their money on useless stupid activity don't count as a Ponzi because they don't have fraudulent intent. They are just really stupid.

Whatever participants in digital currencies are not in the first category are in the second category so it isn't much to be excited about.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by SippinLean on Monday June 26, 2017 @03:12PM (#14639406)
Well you have a poor understanding of the definition of a Ponzi scheme. ICOs do not make any promise of a return on investment or paid dividends, the way a Ponzi operator would. Coin makers do not use the income from new investors to pay dividends to older investors, the way a Ponzi operator would.

You are buying the currency, once you receive it the contract with the coin's creators is fulfilled, you are not an investor, you do not own any shares of any company. It is a one-way transaction.

Perhaps you meant pyramid scheme, of which ICOs are also not an example.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by ericb on Monday June 26, 2017 @01:23PM (#14638572)
>AFAIK the definition of a Ponzi scheme is a fake investment where no actual investment in productive activities takes place and all profits are paid out from increasing intakes.

The way to tell your understanding is wrong is that it would describe every currency, and every possible asset (land, valuables, etc).

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by lettergram on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:14PM (#14633276)
To be fair, Ethereum looks like a scheme of some kind (not Ponzi necessarily). The vast majority of the ether is controlled by a single company, which is literally just selling it for money.

... I get the other advantages to Ethereum, but it's not Bitcoin where there is actually a distributed number of people managing it.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by Jabanga on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:19PM (#14633303)
>The vast majority of the ether is controlled by a single company,

Are you sure you're talking about Ethereum, and not Ripple? The vast majority of ether is not controlled by one company.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by RexetBlell on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:20PM (#14633310)
What makes you think that the majority of ETH is controlled by a single company? What company is this? Do you have a source for this?
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by DennisP on Monday June 26, 2017 @09:48AM (#14636738)
Some people get that impression because the majority of ETH was premined. What they miss is that most of that was sold to the general public in the presale. Only 12% of it was not; half of that went to team members (some now sold) and the other half to the nonprofit foundation which is continuing development of the protocol.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by the_cat_kittles on Sunday June 25, 2017 @11:25PM (#14633843)
they resemble ponzi schemes in that you get in early and benefit as more people adopt it. further, like all fiat currency, there is no "underlying" value, so your success depends entirely on how many other people adopt it. so, to me, it does resemble a ponzi scheme. my guess is that you take issue with the connotation of that word, implying its a scam. i dont think it is, but i do think it resembles a ponzi scheme.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by askafriend on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:14AM (#14634970)
One of the reasons Fiat currency has value is because its the only currency that the U.S. Government accepts debt and tax payments in. That is tremendous power and authority behind the currency.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by patrickg_zill on Monday June 26, 2017 @04:36AM (#14635057)
Exactly!

It is quite rare in history that a fiat currency was put in place, that didn't have a corresponding broad based tax in order to enforce its use and give the issuer, usually a sovereign or government, an advantage in being the source of the fiat.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by ThrustVectoring on Monday June 26, 2017 @12:13AM (#14634029)
Fiat currencies have underlying value. If you want to operate a steel mill in the US without getting arrested, you need to procure a certain quantity of US Dollars and remit it to the IRS. No, you can't pay your taxes with bitcoins. It has to be dollars. That's why the US Dollar has inherent value - you can redeem them for the right to operate a business in the US.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by logfromblammo on Monday June 26, 2017 @01:00PM (#14638319)
The exercise of a right cannot be taxed.

You can redeem them for the privilege of operating a legally distinct incorporated business entity in the US.

At a strictly technical level, I believe it may still be possible to live your life entirely lawfully, without being taxed, but the amount of legal analysis necessary to work out exactly how that may be accomplished is beyond me. It's far easier to just earn enough dollars, and then pay up.

(Note that relying on Supreme Court opinions will not get you to anywhere you might want to be if the IRS decides you need to pay them.)

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by ThrustVectoring on Monday June 26, 2017 @07:09PM (#14641192)
What? Of course exercises of legal rights can be taxed. Taxing natural rights is problematic, of course, but the legal rights granted to you - like operating a steel mill, or enforcing the ownership rights to your home for you, or operating a motor vehicle - are completely taxable.
Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by logfromblammo on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:46AM (#14645843)
That is the opinion that struck down poll taxes.

You have a right to vote, so levying a tax upon the act of voting is not permissible. Obviously, if it is a right, it means that even someone with zero money should be able to do it, and you can't pay a tax if you have zero money. The tax prevents poor people from fully exercising their rights.

As such, taxes that appear to be on the exercise of a right are usually worded such that they are actually excises on a legal privilege that is suspiciously similar, or upon an accessory privilege, without which the exercise of the right is largely pointless.

You can build as many steel mills as you want on your own property. But doing so is pointless if you cannot transport the steel over public roads or sell it to customers in the public marketplace, unless you have a great need for vast quantities of steel on your own property. There are quite a lot of foil-hat-wearers out there that try to tease out the line of separation between taxable privileges and untaxable rights, but the reality is that none of their opinions hold any sway unless they have millions of dollars to spend on lawyers and lobbyists, or millions of supporters to march on the capital. As such, a lot of "Sovereign Citizen" propaganda revolves around the insane idea that a state with near unlimited power may be compelled to obey its own laws, even when doing so would be contrary to its own interests.

This is the same phenomenon that results in your tabletop RPG's resident rules lawyer getting their characters killed off. For any obscure rule they can argue to their own advantage, the GM can always just roll behind a screen and say, "Oh dear, the goblin scored a critical hit. What an unlucky occurrence. Your character dies. Again."

For instance, the Supreme Court has also ruled that it is permissible to prevent someone from growing a crop on their own property, never to be exported off of that property, because that satisfies some demand that would otherwise impact prices in interstate commerce. Essentially, the state said it can prevent you from growing corn in your garden, because that means you won't buy as much corn--which could be imported from another state--at the grocery store. In order for that ruling to be consistent with the poll tax opinion, the US cannot recognize that engaging in commerce and providing for your own livelihood is a natural right. Because that would mean it couldn't be taxed, and the government needs those taxes more than you need to buy your own food and shelter.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that many of the things you may call "legal right" are probably just legal privileges, and that if something is taxed, the government does not recognize that you have a right to have it or do it. This is disturbing to some people, because it provides a practical test to unequivocally show that they have far fewer rights recognized by law than they believe themselves to have.

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by libertine on Monday June 26, 2017 @10:19AM (#14636973)
I've asked this for quite some time and still no one was able to answer.

If the power has shifted to an elite who controls the great majority of the currency, and has the power to withdraw/dump coins (basicaly influencing the supply side of the market, and control the value) - I'm pretty sure there are people/organizations who invested into such positions - and have the power to simulate value and draw people into this gold rush...

Where is the line drawn between this and a scam/fraud?

Is it when the control party withdraws all the value from it and dumps it?

For as long as everything is being valued in a positive way, everything is fine?

Re:Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering by empath75 on Sunday June 25, 2017 @09:16PM (#14633290)
I've said this in other threads, but ethereum isn't a Ponzi scheme, it's a platform for Ponzi schemes.