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Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by jimbokun on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:26PM (#14589166)
I doubt the phenomenon you are trying to describe is at all unique to the people who would usually be called white.

In China, ethnic Chinese probably feel the same way compared to immigrants or people of other heritage. Or ethnically Japanese people in Japan. Or Saudis in Saudi Arabia compared to minorities there.

In other words, there is a certain power inherent to being part of the dominant ethnic or cultural group in every human society.

(Although, still need to see research demonstrating membership in these dominant groups leads to same degree of empathy atrophy as the research in the article demonstrates for high status individuals like CEOs.)

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by pdonis on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:54PM (#14589396)
> I would also posit that "white" is not an ethnicity, it's the fiction of a lack of one's ethnicity.

I would put this differently: I would say that "white" is a refusal to identify yourself with a group based on ethnicity. Which for many people who are labeled "white" by others makes sense, since they do not have a single "ethnicity" anyway. I am an example: my genetic ancestry includes Anglo-Saxon, Hispanic, Mediterranean, and Native American, and I am adopted, so my cultural ancestry includes a few more things thrown into the mix. No ethnicity comes anywhere close to describing me, so I have no interest in or reason to identify with one.

As far as "fictitious power dynamics", if my choice to not identify with a group based on ethnicity gives me any power, it's a power that anyone can have by making the same choice. So I don't see how it gives me any advantage over anyone else. After all, what I said about not having a single "ethnicity" anyway probably applies to a majority of humans on this planet at this time, and even if it doesn't apply to you in a strict genetic sense, that doesn't mean you can't make the choice to not identify with a group based on ethnicity.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by bobabooey02 on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:34PM (#14589235)
You're implying that all white men have a sense of entitlement and power, an assumption that is racist and sexist, much like saying black people all like watermelon or women all are overly emotional. You're blurring the line between cultural differences and racial differences which, if left unchallenged, lead to discrimination. There are millions of white men that aren't in a position of power or don't get ahead because of their skin color. In fact, due to affirmative action policies, if anything white men are being pushed out. What makes you think white men are privileged when as a whole, they've been seeing a decline in income?

Edit: to those downvoting me, could you please explain why?

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by elefanten on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:42PM (#14589299)
This is a particularly bad misreading of the comment you're replying to.

The commenter quite explicitly said that they're not referring to all white men. Nor even that being white or a man are among the qualifying conditions.

They are referring to the degree to which people buy in, consciously or subconsciouly, to the notion that their whiteness or masculinity are inherently or naturally good/powerful/dominant.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by bobabooey02 on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:50PM (#14589367)
The problem is acting like definitions are fluid when we're not. If I write a huge paragraph about how black people are violent, but mention in one sentence that I'm talking about black people as a symbol for power and not as a race, that doesn't change the fact that I just talked about an entire race as a whole. It's still ignorant, and blurring the line between race and culture is a dangerous rabbit hole.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by anigbrowl on Monday June 19, 2017 @05:08PM (#14590485)
Definitions are pretty fluid and the top level poster did take time to try to qualify the definition for the purposes of discussion. The problem is that fully qualify a definition often results in a long essay that nobody wants or has time to read, and trying to come up with a new label that's both accurate and accessible to the casual reader is a very slow and difficult process.

Since HN is a well-educated community, on the whole, it's not unreasonable to expect a little more work on the part of potential readers than for the same comment posted on a broader platform like Facebook. Unless I know from prior experience where a particular poster stands, when I read a comment I find attitudinally startling on HN I try out a few different interpretations before making assumptions about what was meant.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by elefanten on Monday June 19, 2017 @03:00PM (#14589451)
Personally, I agree that unclear or shifting definitions are bad for discourse.

And in this case, I would agree that there are better ways to express the idea.

I used a stronger tone than necessary about your original reading, I didn't mean to be hostile. But I did think it was clear that the poster was not generalizing as broadly as you took it.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by tw201 on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:56PM (#14589414)
Short answer: Yes.

What is more, your line of thinking is a good one.

Edward Said constructed basically this same argument - persuasively, I think - in Orientalism, his book on the history of western writing about the east (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)). If you can get a copy, I recommend it strongly: as you can no doubt see, the consequences of this idea are extraordinarily complex. For instance: what exactly determines Whiteness, if it's a concept that is defined only as "not-ethnic"?

Along those lines, Noel Ignatiev's (note: a controversial figure) book How the Irish Became White details how Celtic immigrants were NOT considered white in the antebellum South. Anyone in America, I think, with Irish or Scots ancestry knows the long history of American racism against the Celts. Ignatiev argues that the Celts 'gained' White status by setting themselves up as anti-Black by becoming strong proponents of slavery and speaking racist ideologies. I found this interesting and persuasive. The historical evidence of horrible and inhuman Irish anti-Black sentiment is obvious, but where other scholars have proposed things like "oh, the Irish came over and were racist just like everyone else" Ignatiev proposes a more universal truth about the way constructions of race interact.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by rarec on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:18PM (#14589083)
I find issue with the very first posit that you mention. White isn't an ethnicity, yet somehow Black or Hispanic, or whatever is?

You presume then that attempting to be a white masculine man leads to brain damage, but what about black masculine man? Do they somehow not suffer the brain damage? Why is it considered damage in the first place? They did get in power, maybe what you see as damage is instead optimization.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by erikpukinskis on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:25PM (#14589158)
I don't think black or Hispanic are really enthicities either. They're racial categories.

I think black men suffer some of the same brain damage as white men.

Women with masculine personality traits probably suffer it in some conditions too. If it's real, it's a fuzzy cluster around men, not a strict aspect of manhood only.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by nk1tz on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:23PM (#14589127)
I see no reason to give your identity politics fetish air time. As other commenters have pointed out, you posit definitions that are both absurd and insulting.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by erikpukinskis on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:26PM (#14589170)
I am in the camp that we should give insulting ideologies air time, so that they might be dissected early and often and publically. I split from many of my fellow leftist friends on this matter.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by MaysonL on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:27PM (#14589180)
I think what you are getting at with "'white' is not an ethnicity" is that in post WW II United States culture, white is the default ethnicity. Earlier, say in pre WW I USA, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant was the default, and Irish, Italian, Eastern European, Catholics, were the "other" discriminated aganst and looked down on by those of default ethnicity. (Note that these are over-generalizations that might not be true for any particular individual).
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by Houshalter on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:56PM (#14589408)
I think that white people don't usually identify as being white. Minorities will identify as being their ethnicity. Like it's a tribe they belong to. They will mention it when they describe themselves. They sometimes form groups around it and say they are "proud to be X". Most white people don't identify by their race any more than by their hair color. Their first identity is often to their country or their city.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by tptacek on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:10AM (#14594307)
"White" people routinely identify themselves as Italians, Polish, Irish, or Germans. They have parades! They're very well attended! The Irish even have a holiday.

Black people do indeed identify themselves as "black", and not "Igbo" or "Yoruba" or "Zulu". But there's a reason for that: "black", in the sense of "African American", is an ethnicity we created, by kidnapping millions of people and stripping them of their original culture. Most "black" people in the US share a common culture and linguistic tradition, one that happens to have been created here.

So it makes sense that there is "black pride" and "Irish pride" but not "white pride". Of those three groups, "white" is not really an ethnicity.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by Houshalter on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:06PM (#14600356)
In the past that may have been true. At least in my experience most white people don't even know their country of origin, and if they do it's really not that big of a deal. Ethnic festivals and holidays mostly just continue on as tradition now. They aren't signs of seriously separate cultures. You can't tell whether someone is Irish by how they talk, by how they dress, who they hang around, etc. The fact they are Irish is not an important part of their identity at all. These separate white cultures have mostly melted together over time into just "American culture".
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by erikpukinskis on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:32PM (#14589213)
Yes, "default ethnicity" might be a better term for what I am referencing than "white". Thank you.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by anigbrowl on Monday June 19, 2017 @05:02PM (#14590434)
While it's totally understandable once one looks into the historical context and notes similar patterns in other non-caucasian cultures, the use of the term 'white' in this context has become so confusing and problematic as to perpetuate the very problems it's trying to identify. Unfortunately a lot of the obvious alternatives are similarly problematic, and I haven't been able to think of a good novel one. My favorite term is 'authoritarian' but 6-syllable words are also a good way to lose a large part of your potential audience :-/
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by agumonkey on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:34PM (#14589229)
To me what you hint at is that since the 15th century, europeans were into the imperialism race. They were the most recent and largest default ethnic group.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by dragonwriter on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:35PM (#14589240)
If you look historically, “white” was still the label of the default ethnicity, but people that today we'd think of as “white” (and who would fit the use of “white” as a racial identifier, as in fact Hispanics quite often do) simply are not thought of as “white”, but rather as some distinct ethnicity.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by agumonkey on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:32PM (#14589215)
It's worth researching, and indeed 50+ years ago, other communities were scapegoats. How and why these shifts is important.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by michaelbuckbee on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:42PM (#14589306)
You might enjoy this speech from Angels in America [1] As I think it hits pretty similar points to what you're saying: labels are about power dynamics and much less about the underlying descriptiveness of them.

1 - https://youtu.be/98fBiOVEcyI?t=250

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by mmjaa on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:55PM (#14589405)
All culture is a lie. There isn't such a thing as "white culture" except that which a 'bunch of people' get together and say "that activity over there, we'll call that 'white culture'".

There is no such thing as "America" - this is a social construct which only persists because, every day, people get out of bed and say "well, there is America, and it is 'that thing over there'" and, well, if enough people get together and say something is, the way it is, then thats the way it is.

All culture is a lie. It doesn't hold up on its own, under its own characteristics, like .. say .. Plutonium the Element does. In order to persist, the lie must continually be told.

So really, your invention is as much a lie as anything else. What you really want is to alter culture - and really, who doesn't want that, these days?

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by blackbear_ on Monday June 19, 2017 @04:02PM (#14589955)
> All culture is a lie.

You clearly haven't met people from cultures other than yours, have you?

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by mmjaa on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @05:02AM (#14593056)
In fact, I've met many, which is precisely why I think that culture is a lie. We humans create such arbitrary lives.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by r-u-k-m on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:32PM (#14589217)
erikpukinskis, did you read the article? There isn't a single mention of race (at all). The article is about people in power start making bad decisions, and it's clear this is not restricted to any single race/gender group. see: any conflict, ever, in any country.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but it doesn't seem like your comment is responding to the article - it's responding to the headline, and you're projecting some things onto it and responding to them. Please don't do that - it's what we see on every other news forum/website, and it degrades the quality of the conversation.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by knowaveragejoe on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:25PM (#14589148)
In all of the responses you've gotten so far, people seem to be caught up on the colloquialisms we employ when referring to ethnicities, such as "white" or "black".
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by jimbokun on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:27PM (#14589178)
Indicating "white" may not have been best term to use for the phenomenon he or she was trying to describe.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by drdeca on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:31PM (#14589208)
While I think there may be something to that pov regarding "whiteness", I think that pov about masculinity is quite wrong.

"Masculinity" is an appropriate idea, and masculinity is not a bad thing.

There may be some cultural associations with masculinity which don't need to be there, but I maintain that there is a sense of "masculinity" which ought to be recognized as appropriate in some circumstances (primarily among people who are male)

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by EGreg on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:33PM (#14589223)
Well, women enjoy many privileges versus men. For example, men are profiled by police after violent crimes. They are more likely to be sacrificed in war, to be homeless, to be in prison. Women are ushered into clubs without paying, while men have to get $300 bottle table based on their gender.

If any of the above was done by race, it would be an outrage today and obvious racism. So, does that mean, in some aspects, you can just manipulate symbols from the article and claim women have similar forms of brain damage simply from their being a woman?

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by erikpukinskis on Monday June 19, 2017 @04:49PM (#14590340)
I think femininity probably has it's own associate brain damage too, yes. Different, but probably less extensive due to the demands of feminine people to understand the other. Although quite debilitating in important ways. Same for non-white folks. I am more reluctant to speculate about those things because of their history as popular notions ("women and blacks are retarded"), and the fact that I have no direct experience of it. I experience my own developmental delays all the time and I'm a white man.

And I agree with you there are many negatives to manhood and masculinity, many positives to womanhood. I don't see that as contradicting my theory.

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Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by nooron on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:20PM (#14589110)
When people say "he/she looks ethnic", they don't mean white. This is a common colloquialism. He doesn't mean that white isn't an ethnicity -- he means that it's the default setting in the US. The poster is not defining this in a way nobody else does; to the contrary, they are defining it in a ubiquitous way.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by seanmcintyre on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:21PM (#14589118)
"Whiteness" as a tacit non-ethnicity is very much an accepted understanding.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by criley2 on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:25PM (#14589157)
I would argue that whiteness's non-ethnicity is a learned and enforced behavior in society.

It's accepted/understood because it's an intentional outcome of an intentional policy.

There USED to be a white culture, white ethnicity, white everything. (One only needs to experience American history to understand the centuries long history of white identity in America).

But due to heritage of political white supremacy, we decided to destroy ALL white identity, ALL white culture, ALL white "ethnicity", as a "baby with the bath water" approach to ending white supremacy.

I think this is why people have this disconnect between "ethnicity" and "whiteness". In this thread.

OF COURSE there is a white ethnicity, but, we Americans destroyed white identity intentionally to destroy white supremacy.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by MisterBastahrd on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:55PM (#14589404)
Was there?

My Cajun / German great grandparents had a lot more in common with local black families than white Germans from New York. Whiteness to them was just an artificial way to segregate people.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by nooron on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:57PM (#14589425)
There has never been a "white culture" in an enduring and stable way. Something resembling a multi-ethnic white monoculture developed during the 1950s, resulting from the social mixing of whites in WW2 service. But that's very new and not very robust -- certainly lacking deep roots.

There have been a lot of very distinct cultures held by white people -- German, Irish, Finnish, etc -- but they were all quite different.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by criley2 on Monday June 19, 2017 @04:23PM (#14590142)
What's your opinion then on such white identity speeches like the Confederate Corner Stone speech, delivered by the Vice President of the Confederacy?

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerst...

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

It seems that even a century earlier than your 1950's monoculture, the white people of America were not just calling themselves white, but in fact, were creating political philosophy centered around their white identity.

Not their polish, German, Irish, Finnish identity.

Their WHITE identity.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by nooron on Monday June 19, 2017 @05:57PM (#14590759)
What's my opinion on the speech? That it's true that people conceptualized of a "white race" prior to the 1950s, but it doesn't contradict my claim that an inclusive white identity lacks long historical precedent, historical pre-eminence or robustness. If it were robust and pre-eminent, the KKK wouldn't have targeted white Catholics or Jews. If it were robust and pre-eminent, Irish Americans wouldn't have been treated poorly in much of the US. If it were robust and pre-eminent, "race scientists" of the late 19th and early 20th century would not have divided whites into distinct sub-races with purportedly unique characteristics. Ethnic balkanization among whites in the US persisted throughout the first half of the 20th century – think of the distinct ethnic mobs and tensions that characterized NYC – and mass conscription during WW2 substantially changed this.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by criley2 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:18AM (#14593954)
If it were robust and pre-eminent, white people wouldn't have seceded from the country to create a white country, a literal ethno-state.

Oh wait!

Is what it is, you clearly already have your conclusion.

P.S. northern chinese make fun of southern chinese (cantonese), does that preclude their ethnicity and culture? I fail to see how targeting Irish means anything. Chinese target their own sub-ethnicities all day long. As does every other ethnic group.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by tptacek on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @09:03AM (#14594262)
He's being pretty clear, and your response is a little obtuse.

He's not saying that nobody called themselves "white" before 1950.

He's saying that the demographics of "whiteness" in the mid-1800s are different than the demographics of "whiteness" now, and so the term is arbitrary.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by ethnic_throw on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:34PM (#14589228)
I'd hazard a guess that most people don't differentiate between race and ethnicity.

I'm not sure why you'd conflate the two, to be honest—understanding your race is fairly necessary to understand how you're viewed in the US, and how you might be expected to behave. Understanding your ethnicity is an entirely different thing—e.g. legally, nobody cared if a person was french, german, or english if the question was 'black or white'. But you might care.

Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by KekDemaga on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:28PM (#14589183)
Why not say not specified or none as opposed to white? It seems needlessly confusing.
Re:Over time, leaders lose mental capacities by mmjaa on Monday June 19, 2017 @02:57PM (#14589422)
"White" = "Power" = "Must be Smashed".