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Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by comstock on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:49AM (#14560304)
World politics seems to be shifting to the right in almost all the major economies. It's quite depressing (to me).

Are any of the major economies moving to the left? Does anybody have a good understanding of why this is happening?

In this instance, it doesn't appear to be fear caused by domenstic terrorism. Japan suffered domestic terrorism in the past and the response seemed far more measured then.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by maxxxxx on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:58AM (#14560391)
I don't think we should think of this (and probably most other things) as left or right issue. Leaning toward the left in economic issues doesn't really predict what somebody will do about terrorism. We should just phrase it as pro-surveillance or not. Not left/right or liberal/conservative.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by eeZah7Ux on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:06AM (#14560486)
Most of the world is moving very fast towards the authoritarian side - the vertical dimension on the political compass.

Yet, it's also true that many countries are moving far to the right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by new299 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:24AM (#14560648)
Interesting, thanks. Has anyone suggested a theory as to why this might be happening?
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by wu-ikkyu on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:39AM (#14561383)
"As the networking accelerates humanity into a spherically embracing, spontaneous union, yesterday's locally autonomous, self-preoccupied governments are left in the exclusive control of yesterday's most selfishly successful and entrenched minorities.

The present U.S.A. 1982 administration was elected by the votes of only one-seventh of the U.S. population and it spent $170 million — more than five times the money raised by their opponents — to buy their victory. The networks' people, aware that a U.S. presidency costs $50 million, a senatorship $10 million, and a representative's seat $5 million, observe that the TV era governments are corrupt, wherefore they spontaneously abhor and abstain from further voting.

Gradually discovering that the networking abandonment of the voting booth was the true cause of their claimed "overwhelming majority," the incumbent administration, fearful of a potential rejective voting tidal wave of the inter-networked world people, will probably try in vain to block networking. Because networking is apolitical and amorphous, it has no "cells" to be attacked, as did the communism of former decades. The fearful sovereign nation politicos will find that trying to arrest networking is like trying to arrest the waves of the ocean."

--Buckminster Fuller, Grunch of Giants (1982)

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by Armisael16 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:09PM (#14561668)
Please don't use code blocks for quotes. It doesn't line wrap, which makes it basically unreadable on mobile.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by wu-ikkyu on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:40PM (#14561972)
Fixed, thanks for the feedback.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by wfo on Thursday June 15, 2017 @02:54PM (#14563289)
First I'll say that surveillance is a consensus among people in power no matter how you slice it. It is, depending on your perspective 1) about governments expanding government power, something the powerful in government always want or 2) about defending against terrorism, something everyone wants.

I'll give you my perspective on your question as someone fairly left of center, so take it with a grain of salt. Or take it as God's truth, whatever you fancy.

People, inevitably inexorably being strangled to death by the neoliberal free market capitalist economic system which has controlled nearly every western government since the 80s, are struggling and striking out for anything that will save them. People often turn to extremism and fascism of all stripes in situations like that. They become more extreme, because the status quo is a slow and painful death so anything that seems like it will bring change is good. When you are drowning you don't worry too much about the kind of boat that's offering to pull you up, you just climb onto it. Even if that boat is a slave ship.

Leftists have seen some success recently when they drop the ridiculous affectation of 'reasonable centrism and compromise' (centrism is only ever reasonable to people for whom the status quo is working, almost by definition), stop focusing on race/gender to the exclusion of class, and present real, radical, explicit and understandable changes to improve the lives of voters: Corbyn, Sanders, even Melenchon have all had encouraging and very high levels of success relative to expectations and the recent past, though they are mentioned in the order of their absolute success (Corbyn, topping the list, won a huge number of seats, the largest increase in labor vote share since 1945, caused a hung parliament which is pushing the Tories to make an uneasy alliance with an extremist group).

But these movements are still beginning and have a lot of work to do; they diametrically oppose the entrenched order explicitly (for the ultrawealthy, a Muslim ban is gauche and unbecoming of their senses of civility and properness; nationalizing private industry to take it from robber barons or providing healthcare for the poor is a very assault on their power/way of life), so they receive no support from above.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by maxxxxx on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:35AM (#14560752)
A lot of people think they are not doing well and the system doesn't work for them anymore so they look for someone who has simple answers.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by new299 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:41AM (#14560813)
I can see this in many of the top economies, but is this true is all cases? China for example, seems to be doing well, but I can't really see that it's becoming less authoritarian.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by dmix on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:39PM (#14561959)
China's social/political system is heavily authoritarian, but economically, in practice, it's quite laissez faire. The problem is when anything reaches scale in China the vultures in local government come in and try to get protection money.

They have been doing a lot recently to reduce this corruption and apparently have made good process. I don't doubt that social/political liberties will not improve in China but it's possible the business environment could further improve. Especially with the next president.

The only problem is the government created a very unstable economy with their massive spending projects after the financial crisis. And a lot of the wealthy people are rushing to get their money out instead of reinvesting it there and they are still very unfriendly to foreign capital (both human and financial).

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by maxxxxx on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:30AM (#14561298)
When an authoritarian system does well, it won't become less authoritarian.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by Cthulhu_ on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:12AM (#14561108)
And populists bring simple answers - blame immigrants, blame Hillary, blame muslims, make Murca great again, etc. Or France. Oh also blame Europe.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by mc32 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:44AM (#14561447)
Everyone uses populism to their ends. See occupy Wall Street. It's no surprise that organized labor (a secure vote for the left) broke with tradition and went anti globalization.

It's interesting to see the lower middle class once dependable voters for the left break right and likewise, upper middle class, once dependable voters for the right, break left. I'm glad that parties can no longer take their bases for granted.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by jacquesm on Thursday June 15, 2017 @07:29PM (#14565360)
I was writing you an answer but it got so long that I ended up writing a blog post instead:

https://jacquesmattheij.com/i-blame-the-babel-fish

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by comstock on Saturday June 17, 2017 @01:08AM (#14574373)
Thanks, that was interesting. But is there any data to back up the theory that enabling communication has the negative consequences you suggest?
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by jacquesm on Sunday June 18, 2017 @07:37PM (#14583620)
Look around you?
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by dmix on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:43AM (#14560828)
The book "The Forth Revolution" [1] has a really good history of how the size of the state has exploded globally since the 1950s. The push for greater and greater power has been a global phenomenon. It has continue almost unabated, the rhetoric of the right such as Reagan/Thatcher in the 1980s was merely a small blip in the hockey stick growth.

> The first revolution was the rise of the European nation-state after the Peace of Westphalia; the second was the late-18th- and 19th-­century turn toward individual rights and accountable government; the third was the creation of the modern welfare state. Each revolution improved the state’s ability to provide order and deliver vital services while still fostering innovation. But as democratic publics demanded more and more, the state promised more and more, eventually overextending itself. In Revolution 3.5, Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan tried, but failed, to shrink the state.

The second half of the book is less good where it predicts the eventual shrinking of the state towards an efficient Singapore-esque limited government (aka the fourth revolution). But they make very good observations about the current state where individual liberties are continually diminished, innovation is crippled, widespread government inefficiency is the norm ("94% of government IT projects failed in last decade"), budgets are bloated, and the economic growth needed to support social services stalls.

The cause may simply be that whenever a crisis happens everyone calls for something to be done, then laws get passed, regardless if they are effective or not (see: terrorism, drugs, etc) as well as the thousands of small regulations over business every time someone gets hurt or dies or were merely pushed through by incumbents protecting their market share. Combine that with constant crises over a couple decades and you have quite the large administrative state.

But I think it may be more simply the result of the "The Iron Law of Bureaucracy" [2]. As organizations mature, without push-back, administrators end up taking over every aspect of an organization (happened at universities too) and the administrators favourite thing to do is creating new rules requiring more administrators. Which is how you end up with so many government agencies that they don't even know how many exist in the US [3].

The growth of the modern state is hardly a partisan issue, at least not in practice.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Revolution-Global-Reinvent-Sta...

[2] http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

[3] https://cei.org/blog/nobody-knows-how-many-federal-agencies-...

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by astrange on Thursday June 15, 2017 @05:52PM (#14564717)
Growth in administration won't be stopped by right-wing privatization, it's a consequence of trying to make an efficient organization. "Efficiency" means firing everyone who you can measure is doing a bad job, but the administrators either are the ones measuring, or have a job that nobody understands and so can't be measured.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by angrydev on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:41AM (#14561418)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyklos

Seems there is no end to this cycle

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by emodendroket on Thursday June 15, 2017 @01:01PM (#14562159)
Stagnant or worsening wages and living conditions seems like the obvious culprit.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by comstock on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:01AM (#14560436)
This bill is not just about surveillance. It makes the act of planning/"thinking about" a crime a crime.

"Left" and "right" are context dependent terms. But in this context I mean left as favoring individual freedom.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by maxxxxx on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:08AM (#14560509)
Then call it that way. For example I wouldn't call libertarians left wing but they would be on your side regarding surveillance. But they wouldn't be on your side about environmental regulations for example.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by kijin on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:29AM (#14560705)
Right next door to Japan, South Korea just impeached a right-wing President and elected a left-wing guy instead. The new President has vowed to strip domestic surveillance powers from NIS (national intelligence service), the Korean counterpart to CIA.

Last year, members of three opposition parties collectively filibustered an anti-terrorism bill (granting more domestic surveillance powers to NIS) for 192 hours and 27 minutes, setting a world record by a wide margin. Although the ruling party eventually forced the bill through, the media spotlight on the filibuster helped the opposition grab a lot more seats in the general election shortly afterward. The impeachment ten months later could not have happened without the new balance of power caused by that filibuster.

I don't think surveillance has ever been such a consequential issue in the mainstream politics of any other country so far. So if anyone is in a mood to try a bit less surveillance on its own people, I think South Korea just might be.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by pmoriarty on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:54PM (#14562099)
"Are any of the major economies moving to the left?"

The recent UK election is a bit hopeful in this regard.

The Conservatives weren't beaten outright by Labour, but performed so poorly that one of the architects of their campaign "suggested the party changed its name to the Workers Party or Conservative Workers Party ... He told BBC Newsnight "And I think that we have to actually build our policies based on five pillars - we should be a real modern trade union movement for the British people - five pillars of workers' rights, workers' jobs and skills, workers' wages, workers' welfare and workers' services."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40277395

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by jrs95 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:51AM (#14560317)
The election that just happened in the UK seems to indicate that things are going the other way. Young voter turnout increased substantially, and they're way further to the left. That age gap seems to exist in the rest of Europe & the U.S. as well.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by comstock on Thursday June 15, 2017 @09:59AM (#14560400)
The increased young voter turnout is great. But the conservatives won, and are moving further and further to the right. Corybns own party have been trying to force him out. And to be honest, the Labour Party supposed some pretty right bill legislation (the IP Bill).

There maybe significant (and even growing) resistance. But it doesn't seem very effective at creating political change.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by jrs95 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:14AM (#14560565)
But the right wing voters continue to die off at a pretty decent rate every year. So as long as the young actually bother to vote, I don't think it'll be very long for this trend to reverse itself. A lot of "left" parties do seem to ultimately answer to corporate interests though.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by kijin on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:39AM (#14561393)
At the same time, young people grow older, and people tend to become more conservative with age. Baby boomers used to smoke pot and rally for civil liberties. Then they got mortgages, kids, and cable TV.

As people live longer and birth rates stay low, young people are increasingly outnumbered by old people in many parts of the developed world. I suspect that this demographic change has a lot to do with the right turn that many countries seem to be making these days.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by new299 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:22AM (#14560632)
It's possible. Or perhaps Corybn will be pushed out and the Labour party will take a more authoritarian stance again.

And even if Labour get in, they still voted the IP Bill in. So they are pro-surveillance. So overall, I can't be convinced that "things are looking positive" from an individual liberties point of view, in the UK. Is there anywhere it's looking positive?

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by jrs95 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:26AM (#14560671)
Oh yeah I agree, from an individual liberties point of view, we're totally fucked...and hardly anyone seems to care because they're easily distracted by shiny things & identity politics.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by Cthulhu_ on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:13AM (#14561122)
The extreme-left (think SJW, Antifa, etc), however, is pushing a lot of people to the right as a counter-reaction. I'm not sure if/how Obama's more centrist-left policies (minus the war stuff) influenced that move though.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by opportune on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:21AM (#14561215)
I wouldn't even call them the extreme-left. I'd call them the crybaby left. I consider myself more politically to the left than many SJW friend/acquaintances that I know, but I'm also not a whiner that likes to participate in the oppression olympics.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by thrillgore on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:19AM (#14560602)
Trump's election has spooked rational people into action. And sadly, it's done the same to the irrational (given yesterday's shooting in DC).
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by muninn_ on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:24AM (#14560657)
Please keep in mind that mass surveillance has bipartisan support. It's a people vs the government issue, not left vs right.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by TorKlingberg on Thursday June 15, 2017 @12:08PM (#14561652)
There has been a wave of populist right in the west, but it seems to be ending (see recent France, UK elections). Japan has not been affected much. They have their far right, but it's not growing. Japanese politics has been conservative and controlled by large business interests for decades, and I see this as just an other part of that. There is a left in Japan, but they focus more issues like the military, not copyright and state surveillance.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by mc32 on Thursday June 15, 2017 @10:06AM (#14560487)
As others said, it's not a left vs right thing. Traditionally it would have been more of a left thing, but now there is no correlation.

As to why in general a move to sovereignty it's a long delayed reaction to neoliberal economics and globalization as we have reached what might colloquially be called peak globalism as people (working class) see it as a net negative on their lives.

Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by rukittenme on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:12AM (#14561107)
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean its symptomatic of the opposition party. Looking at the history of left wing governments (such as China and the Soviet Union), I'd say this is a swing to the left.
Re:Abe Passes Controversial Bill Boosting Japan Surveillance... by kijin on Thursday June 15, 2017 @11:29AM (#14561295)
Plenty of right wingers have been on your wrong side as well: Mussolini, Pinochet, Marcos...

This isn't about left and right, it's a power grab. Any leader of any political party can fall to the temptation of a power grab regardless of their professed ideology.