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Re:10x engineers take long naps by j45 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @10:44AM (#14545076)
10x doesn't have to mean producing 10x more code - just 10x more effective than the average developer.

In my experience, clever (usually simple) architecture in solving a problem will always beat clever code, and volumes of code.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by sp332 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:01AM (#14545265)
It's 10x more productive than the least productive, which means about 3x more productive than average. http://www.ybrikman.com/writing/2013/09/29/the-10x-developer...
Re:10x engineers take long naps by jblow on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:34AM (#14545553)
I don't understand why HN readers are so eager to debunk the idea of 10x developer when it's obvious they exist.

For example, in this post you seem to be setting the upper bound around 3x. But actually, it is trivial to be 3x more productive than average: (a) Don't browse the internet while at work; (b) Sit there and spend your time working on the actual problem, not ratholing on programmer fixations that have nothing to do with the end result. Done. Congratulations, you are now 3x, before any consideration is made of experience level or talent or smartness or unique instinct or whatever else.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by mattmanser on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @12:50PM (#14546236)
You make it sound so trivial to do, but in fact if you did that you'd burn out. All that ratholing and reading is in fact resting.

You can only concentrate so many hours a day. Without that resting your productivity drops.

The most productive/best programmer I knew used to piss around flying virtual helicopters for half the afternoon, would throw together prototypes no-one asked him to because he was bored, and went home at 5:30 every day.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by jblow on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @01:59PM (#14546987)
I disagree. That ratholing and reading is not resting at all, it is procrastination. If you want to rest, go to lunch or take a coffee break, or meditate or something.

> You can only concentrate so many hours a day. Without that resting your productivity drops.

This is the kind of thing people tell themselves to justify procrastination. If you are unable to concentrate for long, maybe you have damaged your attention span by too much internet browsing, and the cure is just to stop?

Re:10x engineers take long naps by nostrademons on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @03:42PM (#14547930)
You say this, and yet here you are, posting repeatedly on HN. :-P
Re:10x engineers take long naps by j45 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:23PM (#14548282)
I think part of the denial is people can't imagine something is posisble if they can't see how or do it themselves.

Also the age demographic of hn lately is younger and less experienced and perhaps the next wave are still learning about the reality of developers that are many orders of magnitude more effective and productive than their average peers.

Some people are just more prolific than others at certain skills.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by sp332 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:29PM (#14548340)
The article I linked to summarizes multiple studies showing the 3x effect. I don't know of any that show a 10x effect. It's not just my imagination.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by sp332 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:46AM (#14545663)
Are you specifically disagreeing with the original post, about working less hours in a week etc?
Re:10x engineers take long naps by jblow on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @01:58PM (#14546978)
I posted my general thoughts on this topic yesterday:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14538761

Re:10x engineers take long naps by j45 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:21PM (#14548267)
This was a good read when it had come out. I can say I know more than a couple of (experienced very bright) 10x developers and they commonly annoy lots of people around them because they're so effective between their technical chops are so high they can focus on using them in the right amount.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by QuantumGravy on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @12:36PM (#14546097)
The wonderful thing about 10x developers is that you can keep redefining what 10x means to make your point. The 10x developer is a mythical beast that changes with every retelling. There's only one definition with any experimental weight behind it—10x the worst and 2.5x average—which isn't quite terrifying enough to keep telling stories about 'round the campfire.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by j45 on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:24PM (#14548292)
Haha, or they just have a highly unusual track record of delivering entire projects that would take longer or larger teams to complete.

They are forces of nature, prolific creators that deliver when they have to, and lift up entire teams to be better when they work with others.

The right kind of compounding experience goes a long way.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by QuantumGravy on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @05:00PM (#14548603)
That's a perfect illustration of what I'm getting at. You can just keep redefining whatever 10x means to make your point. In your example, minus the the initial "Haha", this might as well be lifted from a cover letter or a consultant's sales pitch:

"I have a highly unique track record of delivering entire projects that would take longer schedules or larger teams to complete. Clients have called me a force of nature, a prolific creator that delivers when the job must get done and one who lifts up entire teams to be better when they work beside me. I provide the right kind of compounding experience that goes a long way."

Such confidence. The hiring managers are swooning over here.

But that's beside the point. Where's the study that meaningfully quantified that type of performance? Especially at an individual, repeatable level? If we can't answer those questions, I must conclude that the current usage of 10x developer is about as meaningful as "passionate ninja rockstar".

Re:10x engineers take long naps by gdulli on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:56AM (#14545748)
Yes, and it's also about inflection points, like avoiding choosing the wrong technology that could make a project 10x less successful than it might have been. Or making the wrong build vs. buy decision. Decisions that require experience and insight, that you have to make early and will be impactful and can't be easily reversed when they turn out to be mistakes.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by rudyrigot on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @06:16PM (#14556546)
Author here. You're basically summarizing my entire article in a much (MUCH!) more digest and straightforward way. So, yeah, absolutely +1000 and thanks for that!
Re:10x engineers take long naps by thehardsphere on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:00AM (#14545245)
10x is 10x the least skilled developer who is still employed, not 10x the average (median) developer.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by pawadu on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:01AM (#14545264)
You obviously haven't met the 0.1x developer ...

... or the infamous -10x developer.

Count your blessings.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by thehardsphere on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:13AM (#14545359)
I actually read some of the research that produced the 10x number.

The 0.1x developer, if they're actually competent enough to remain employed for more than a probationary period, probably isn't at 0.1x; you're probably underrating them because you're better than average and are thus overrating what average is. (This is part of the Dunning-Kruger effect).

-10x developers should be fired fairly quickly if they're actually that negative and the business is being managed competently. I've worked with a few; they were fired within months or weeks.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by whatnotests on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @11:28AM (#14545498)
I've always considered the Dunning-Kruger effect from the perspective of "too dumb to know I'm dumb" not "too smart to know I'm smart".

Interesting to think it goes in both directions!

Re:10x engineers take long naps by tdeck on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @12:02PM (#14545795)
It's a common misconception that the Dunning-Kruger effect is just about dumb people not knowing they're dumb. In fact, it's about something we all do - overestimating our knowledge and competence in areas where we have little of both. It's worth recognizing the distinction because everyone is subject to the Dunning-Kruger effect when we're out of our depth in some area and there are a lot of "unknown unknowns".
Re:10x engineers take long naps by thehardsphere on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @12:14PM (#14545893)
Yeah, most people know "too dumb to know I'm dumb." The "too smart to know I'm smart" is less well known but it has a lot of implications.

For instance, highly skilled people will often underestimate the difficulty of a task for average skilled people, because they complete it with relative ease. It's effectively an overestimation of what "average" is, because they think of themselves as average when they're really not.

"Relative" is the key word here. Your natural high skill performer may think a task is difficult, but they don't necessarily find the same sources of difficulty as average people.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by ThrustVectoring on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:35PM (#14548394)
I've always heard the "too smart to know I'm smart" as manifesting differently. Getting better improves two distinct sub-skills: excution, and perception of performance flaws. Dunning-Krugar effect, to me, just says that flaw perception grows faster with skill than execution does.

At a concrete level, I remember watching a lecture from a Jazz instructor by the name of Hal Galper, who said something like "Not liking the music you're playing is a sign that you're getting better, since it means you can now hear the mistakes you've always been making". It's really stuck with me through learning other creative pursuits (dance, in particular).

Re:10x engineers take long naps by thehardsphere on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @04:57PM (#14548579)
I have heard someone else say a similar thing about writing, and I believe it. They described it as "having or developing taste", and were encouraging people to keep writing through those feelings because as they got better it would help them know what to write and what not to write.

Dunno if I've seen it in software development, but I also don't have any real objective estimation of how good I am at software development.

Re:10x engineers take long naps by kbaldor on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @12:25PM (#14545987)
It does, and has since its original discovery. Though the effect is not as pronounced as its popular conception would have you believe. The poor performers overrated their performance, but did not rate it higher than the high performers did. It is more like the grandparent observed that everyone tends to think of themselves as close to average.
Re:10x engineers take long naps by rurban on Wednesday June 14, 2017 @07:33AM (#14551980)
No. The negative ones usually form crowds and alliances, and with a lot of backpadding and self management it leads to your typical failed projects. Many of them are very high-profile, and they would never have the insight that they are actually more destructive than useful. That's why forks do exist.