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Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by GordonS on Monday June 12, 2017 @12:22PM (#14538482)
On the other hand, working in an office is a sort of work tax too - commuting to and from the office is wasted time that could have been spent sleeping or with family. It has a financial cost attached for the employee too.

Many office environments are noisy too, which doesn't always make them the best place for productivity.

In an ideal world, employers would allow employees to choose themselves, and for commuting-distance, remote employees to 'hot desk' when they want.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by intoverflow2 on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:09PM (#14538880)
>On the other hand, working in an office is a sort of work tax too

On yet another hand working in an office and having to deal with remote workers is also a tax on the local workers productivity.

Lost count of the number of times I've had to take time out of my work schedule to VC with remotes to solve misunderstandings that would never have happened if they were working in the same room.

Company I work at also has several people who have remote worked from the very early days and don't seem to understand the entire culture of the place and workflow has changed which throws spanners in the works at times.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by ryandrake on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:17PM (#14538955)
It's almost as if remote work and in-office work both have their plusses and minuses, the choice to do one vs. the other involves trade-offs, and one size does not fit all. Crazy, I know!
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by panopticon on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:16PM (#14538946)
> On the other hand, working in an office is a sort of work tax too - commuting to and from the office is wasted time that could have been spent sleeping or with family. It has a financial cost attached for the employee too.

The difference here is who ends up paying the tax. For remote work, the employer pays the lion's share of the "tax". In a traditional setup, the employee pays the brunt of the "tax".

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by GordonS on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:32PM (#14539092)
And the difference here is that the 'tax' the employer pays lessens or disappears as employees get used to working remotely; whereas for the employee, there will always be a cost in time and money to commute.

With employees working remotely, the employer can also make big cost savings by needing a much smaller office space.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by elgenie on Monday June 12, 2017 @03:37PM (#14540338)
Assuming that employers don't pay for commuting is a bit much. More stressed / sleep-deprived / commuting-fatigued employees are less effective at their jobs and, crucially, for the cases in which someone commutes while still spending all their desired time on leisure and sleep, then the commute time is clearly one-for-one substituted for work time.

There's plenty of research as to the negative effects of commuting (e.g. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/urban-survival/201501/c...)

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by sqeaky on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:52PM (#14539298)
The employer is paying for it, it just isn't clear what ledger column the cost appears in.

If an employer isn't paying me enough to cover travel costs and another offers work from home, it is a reason to switch jobs.

I suspect that and a dozen other tiny reasons are why work in office jobs tend to pay more than work from home jobs.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by jimmywanger on Monday June 12, 2017 @12:50PM (#14538726)
Organizations are generally well acquainted with that sort of "work tax", and the results are fairly well characterized and understood and can be worked around. (Move closer to employees, open a branch office, promote off-peak working hours, transit subsidies).

Remote work is a very recent phenomenon and as such, runs into a completely different set of problems that haven't been as thoroughly solved as a co-located working environment.

It's like picking PostGres/Mysql over Cassandra/Mongo. Sure, both have problems, but the traditional SQL solutions are stable and the problems have known workarounds. With NoSQL solutions, you might be one of the first people who are doing that particular use case, and you'll have to pioneer your own solution, at the expense of the company's business plan/profit.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by antaviana on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:47PM (#14539248)
Regarding commuting, it depends on how you look at it.

For example, commuting has been instrumental in helping me lose 35 kg in 10 months, from size 46 to size 36.

I made the decision to always commute walking (30 minutes commute which I do 4 times a day because I also wanted to have lunch at home with my family). Once you factor in that your commute is 30 minutes instead of 10 minutes (or 0 minutes if you work at home), things are rather easy.

So I end up spending 2 hours a day walking, which turns out to be an activity that I happen to like a lot (its been a bit of an evolution, possibly inspired by the "Love what you do" approach to things as opposed to "Do what you love") and therefore I do not see it as a time waste at all.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by erik-g on Monday June 12, 2017 @04:21PM (#14540749)
Glad that worked out for you! Highly dependent on circumstances, though. I have a 30 minute _drive_ to get to my office, and it's supposed to be 117 degrees next Monday. Walking is pretty impractical in Phoenix in general, and the public transportation is awful. So yes my exercise happens in a dedicated gym.
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by pc86 on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:57PM (#14539347)
You know you could have a shorter commute, go to the gym for ~30-45 minutes of real exercise, and have more free time in the day, right?
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by blakesmith on Monday June 12, 2017 @02:43PM (#14539815)
Don't long walks qualify as "real exercise"? The op's weight loss seems to indicate so. Even without the results, you can't discount the fact that they might get far more enjoyment out of long walks than being crammed in a smelly Gym each day. It's not always about being efficient with your time. Often the most enjoyable things in life are the least time efficient.
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by antaviana on Monday June 12, 2017 @03:09PM (#14540095)
In my case, I'm not sure. I had a long history of being a member of gyms to where I did not go because I always found something better to do. In fact, in the past I even was paying for two gyms and I did not go to any of them. I suspect I'm not alone here, if all members of a gym decided to go, they would not fit in the gym. I always hear that the lion's share of revenue for a gym comes from people who never go.

I think that what worked for me (goal: increase activity) was to build the activity as a part of routine that was too inconvenient to skip, and then ending up liking that routine. I do not see anymore commuting as busy time, for me it is part of my free time, an activity that I do want to do. In other words, on weekends I now usually go hiking and I do not consider as busy time.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by matthewmacleod on Monday June 12, 2017 @02:45PM (#14539837)
There's a bit of irony in describing walking as "not real" exercise.
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by smokeyj on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:56PM (#14539336)
"Chemotherapy is actually kind of nice considering the money you save on haircuts"
Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by danpalmer on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:03PM (#14538835)
> In an ideal world, employers would allow employees to choose themselves

But it's not that simple, because the "remote tax" is paid by everyone, not just by those who decide to work remotely.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by GordonS on Monday June 12, 2017 @01:37PM (#14539144)
I think it works for some companies, not so much for others.

At the company I work for, we're spread around a few countries and are well used to working this way. But despite the benefits, not everyone chooses to work from home - not everyone has a home environment conducive to remote work, and some simply don't like it. We've got decent comms tools, and honestly, the 'remote work tax' is very seldom an issue.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by smokeyj on Monday June 12, 2017 @02:10PM (#14539471)
It's not even a tax. It's an alternative (and likely better) work flow. Online and remote-first processes should be the default. Why? Because you can record them, distribute them, play them back and use them as a reference. Even if you don't allow remote and have any level of team colocation this should be the default.

Even meetings make more sense at your computer. Who wants to squint at an overhead in a room full of people? I'd rather get a close-up view of the presentation (screenshare) and be able to hear everyone clearly. I can capture screenshots, take notes, schedule follow ups etc.

Re:Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most em... by danpalmer on Tuesday June 13, 2017 @03:25PM (#14547810)
You make some good points, but I still think there's a cost.

There are frequent times throughout my working day when I ping the dev who sits next to me (or they png me) to ask if I'm free to chat "IRL" for 2 minutes, and if so we'll do a _very_ quick pairing session on a bug, or get input from the other on a design problem. These things are big enough that they are worth getting a quick check on from someone else, but likely small enough that typing out a more complete explanation, or even having to loop someone else into the full context, is prohibitively expensive. I don't think we'd lose out much from not having that ability - when the other one of us is busy we can't do it anyway - but I think the lack of it does cost something.

> Even meetings make more sense at your computer.

I think I'd also disagree with this to some extent. I think it's easier to get distracted at a computer, distracts others who work next to people who are talking into a mic on their computer, and can add overhead with connection issues (I find adding a remote employee adds ~3-5 minutes an hour of overhead, and they are involved less in the meeting). That said, we don't have computers in meetings other than the one that is running the screen, so people aren't getting distracted by (or working on) other things, and we have a tendency to (politely) walk out of meetings that we feel we aren't adding value to.