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Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by 2_listerine_pls on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:02PM (#14491148)
Of course they let in google's crawler.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by hackcasual on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:06PM (#14491216)
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by nso on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:39PM (#14491727)
I guess what this one infact states is that what they were doing was okay.

In the video the guy explains that while you are not allowed to treat gbots request in a way no other people are treated, it is okay to differentiate between "boxes" of users. In their example it is the country USA, but if you define a "google user country" and let all users of google in it is ok to bundle the gbot with those. Grey area for sure, but might makes right.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by squeaky-clean on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:01PM (#14492007)
From the video

"So geolocation, that is, looking at the IP address and reacting to that-- is totally, fine, as long as you're not reacting specifically to the IP of just Googlebot, just that very narrow range".

Also, they will crawl you from an unusual IP using a user-agent that doesn't say it's Google. And when that happens, and you deny access to undercover-Googlebot, but allow Googlebot in full uniform, you'll be penalized for cloaking.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by nso on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:23PM (#14492231)
I guess they in that case could argue on the wording if they don't JUST react to gbot, but gbot and anyone coming from the google homepage.

They would have to react to just gbot when constructing the special google urls when the bot is crawling the site, tho.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by squeaky-clean on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:19PM (#14492763)
> but gbot and anyone coming from the google homepage.

This how they were originally handling it, before February. It would display if you visit the link from Google, or set your refer to it looks like it (this is why HN has the "web" link under articles), even if you weren't a subscriber. It's allowed, because regular users coming from Google do see the same thing as Googlebot.

WSJ have since changed that, so only subscribers can view articles, and you no longer get a "free click" coming from Google Search as Google calls it. They now show a short snippet, and are following guidelines to be labeled a “subscription” service by Google Search. This caused their rankings to drop below being a "free" news source though. But it's not nearly as bad as if they had cloaked Google.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by 2_listerine_pls on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:19PM (#14491428)
I went through the whole thing and it seems, from the video, that they could avoid cloaking by redirecting non-paid users to the sing-up page.

This way WSJ would be showing the same (www.wsj.com/Bezos-with-hair) to every user.

*based on the video

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by squeaky-clean on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:57PM (#14491955)
In the video, he stresses pretty hard that all forms of cloaking are disallowed, even if not malicious or deceiving. Unless the Googlebot has a paid subscription to WSJ that's still cloaking, as you're showing Googlebot a different page than a regular user.

Google's rules and help documents are spread all over, but here's some from Google News about subscriptions:

"If you prefer this option, please display a snippet of your article that is at least 80 words long and includes either an excerpt or a summary of the specific article. Since we do not permit "cloaking" -- the practice of showing Googlebot a full version of your article while showing users the subscription or registration version -- we will only crawl and display your content based on the article snippets you provide."

edit, forgot link: https://support.google.com/news/publisher/answer/40543?hl=en

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jacquesm on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:38PM (#14491702)
> sing-up page.

That's a new one. Buy a subscription to the WSJ now for a song.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by oconnor663 on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:51PM (#14491889)
You just say bingo.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by CydeWeys on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:06PM (#14491212)
The whole purpose of making a webcrawler for a search engine is that you are crawling the content that a user will see upon clicking a link in search results.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by 2_listerine_pls on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:29PM (#14491580)
Even if it's behind a paywall, there is benefit in crawling it.

For instance, if you happened to be a logged WSJ user, then google could show you the result based on your cookies.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dragonwriter on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:54PM (#14491922)
Googlebot does not crawl the web separately for each user with a copy of that user's credentials borrowed from their browser. Aside from the privacy and security issues, it would require Google to multiply it's search resources by the number of users.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by 2_listerine_pls on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:42PM (#14492408)
> Googlebot does not crawl the web separately for each user with a copy of that user's credentials borrowed from their browser.

I did not say that.

I said google could display the results to which you have access, based on your cookies. Assuming they had access to crawl the whole article.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by CydeWeys on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:49PM (#14492477)
That would require Google to be in the business of knowing every site that you have a membership in.

It is not possible for Google to get access to cookies for other sites, anyway. This is a pretty fundamentally important security restriction that browsers implement to protect you from nefarious sites. So it isn't possible for Google to know which sites you have paid accounts with unless you explicitly tell it.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Flenser on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @06:09AM (#14496065)
> Even if it's behind a paywall, there is benefit in crawling it.

How would that work? Would Google create or be given a login for WSJ? That would benefit WSJ as an incumbent news provider at the expense of startups too new or small to get special treatment from Google.

How would a new website indicate to all search crawlers (so google doesn't befit at the expense of other search engines) how to get access to it's pay-for content in such a way that end-users can not also pretend to be seach crawlers and get access to the same content?

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by seanp2k2 on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:08PM (#14491247)
Yep, that's literally https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaking . If they were a smaller site, they'd probably get outright banned by google.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by DougWebb on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:06PM (#14491215)
Possible, but seems unlikely. To set that up the WSJ website would have to allow Googlebot access while denying others. Any filtering based on the url or HTTP headers would be discovered and abused by others. An approach based on a security token or IP filter could work, but would be un-managable on Google's side because of the scale of their spidering operation. It would be much more effective for them to use their position to force the WSJ to be an open website, or to accept that their paywalled content does not get indexed.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by devicenull on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:12PM (#14491307)
Just allow access from all of Google's IP space, as long as the user-agent contains "googlebot'. It's pretty trivial to do...

Sure, some people could set up GCP instances and proxy it, but that's a very tiny percentage of people.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by DougWebb on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:22PM (#14491486)
It might start out as a tiny percentage, but all it takes is one person setting it up and letting the world know about it. Then pretty soon the WSJ is faced with millions of people getting free content again. They're complaining about people accessing their articles via a Google search and then clearing cookies to reset their counters. That's hardly mainstream; browsers have been burying the clear-cookies functionality deeper and deeper over the years because it's seen as an advanced-user-only kind of thing. And yet the WSJ has millions of people doing it, enough to make an impact on their bottom line.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by devicenull on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @08:47AM (#14496780)
I'd bet it's browing in incognito mode versus actually clearing cookies.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by detaro on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:39PM (#14491724)
You can verify if an IP belongs to Googlebot or not, no need to whitelist GCP.

https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/80553?hl=en

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by DougWebb on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:18PM (#14492179)
Google doesn't post a public list of IP addresses for webmasters to whitelist. This is because these IP address ranges can change, causing problems for any webmasters who have hard-coded them, so you must run a DNS lookup as described next.

DNS lookups are far more expensive to perform than an IP filter, and couldn't be done in realtime. So WSJ would have to set up a system where they regularly find all Googlebot referers in their logs that were rejected, do DNS lookups on the IPs, and add any that were valid to a whitelist so that they won't get rejected again. This will cause new Googlebot IPs to get rejected until the whitelist is updated, hurting indexing and ranking. The WSJ would also have to go through their whitelist regularly and do DNS lookups to verify that all of those IPs are still valid Googlebot IPs, and remove any that aren't valid anymore. That opens a window for invalid IPs to continue to get access, which may or may not be a problem depending on how often IPs change and where they get reassigned to.

The IP whitelist would need to be distributed to WSJ's webserver farms and used to update firewall rules, in an automated way that may or may not integrate with how that stuff is currently managed. (Generally, those rules would be tightly controlled in a big org like the WSJ.) The HTTP access log gathering from the farms and their analysis would also need to be automated, which again might be a management issue if the logs contain anything sensitive. (Like, I don't know, records of particular individuals reading particular stories which certain government agencies might be interested in acquiring without the hassle of a warrant.)

So yeah, there's a way to find out if an IP belongs to Googlebot. That's a long way from a manageable filtering solution at the WSJ's scale, even if Google wouldn't penalize them for doing it, which they would.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by heyalexej on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:46PM (#14492977)
There are commercial solutions¹² to this which are widely used for cloaking.

[1] https://my.bseolized.com/products/ipgrabber

[2] http://wpcloaker.com/

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by obstinate on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:38PM (#14491703)
Googlebot's IP range and GCP's IP ranges are disjoint.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by snickerbockers on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:25PM (#14492804)
There used to be a lot of sites that did that, and the result was that people would set their user-agents to match google's and get all the paywalled content for free.