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Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by jonlucc on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:14PM (#14471617)
I think there's another problem with this. I recently was rear-ended while I was stopped at an intersection, and the second question my insurance company asked me is if the car was being used for commercial (ride-sharing) services then or at any time. I wasn't, but I assume this kind of delivery would be commercial use, and the cost to add this to your insurance would be way too expensive to make it worth it for the employees.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by Glyptodon on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:26PM (#14471738)
I assume Walmart's going to have to carry car insurance for deliveries. It doesn't seem like there's any reasonable way they'd be able to "contractor loophole" it.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rectang on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:41PM (#14471876)
Per the TechCrunch article, workers need to submit proof-of-insurance to participate.

The wear-and-tear is going on employee vehicles rather than company vehicles, the additional distance they travel will increase their personal insurance rates, and as with rideshare they will need to pay additional riders on their policies. (If they don't have the riders their policies will be canceled as soon as they make a claim!)

These additional costs make the deal worse for employees and better for Walmart in ways which are hard for the workers to understand. But I guarantee you that Walmart has studied it to death and knows exactly what advantage it brings them!

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by gozur88 on Friday June 02, 2017 @03:15PM (#14472601)
>These additional costs make the deal worse for employees and better for Walmart in ways which are hard for the workers to understand.

That's pretty patronizing. I wouldn't assume people are stupid just because they work for Walmart.

This could be a great deal for people who need extra money. If I'm driving down a street anyway, it's not much of an imposition to drop off a package and not much wear and tear on the car.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by GCA10 on Friday June 02, 2017 @03:30PM (#14472687)
Reinforcement from an unlikely quarter!

The Big Ugly for anyone working in retail the past 20 years is that stores have done almost nothing to improve workers' productivity. Price scanners were a 1990s innovation and there hasn't been much to follow. So it's very hard for workers to make an economic case that they should be getting paid more. (There's a human-decency case, but that doesn't always prevail.)

In fact, average retail wages were 62% of the national average pay in 2000, and they're 55% now. More numbers are here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2017/05/23/the-loo.... What was a bad job then has become a worse job now.

Wal-Mart's new initiative isn't entirely beautiful, but it represents the first effort in a long time to say: "Hey, we discovered something about you that's more valuable than we realized. Your commute home is a potential asset to us, and to date we've paid you zero for it. We've now got a mechanism to pay you something for it, as long as you're willing to do Task X for Payment Y."

It's a lot easier for wages to go up -- in any field -- when workers create more value. We can argue about whether Wal-Mart has defined Task X and Payment Y properly, but at least this is a fresh idea in a field that's been devoid of them for a long time.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by prostoalex on Saturday June 03, 2017 @01:37AM (#14475164)
> stores have done almost nothing to improve workers' productivity

They also got their lesson with Amazon and other online retailers taking productivity to the max by streamlining warehouse operations and removing physical retail with its inefficiencies and expensive leases out of equation.

Currently US retail market can be broken down into three large groups - already bankrupt (Circuit City, Good Guys, Borders, Forever 21, Payless Shoe Stores), close to bankruptcy (JC Penney, Sears), or scaling down in order to avoid bankruptcy (Target, Macy's, Fresh and Easy).

Improving worker productivity at this point is as useful as optimizing horse-feeding stations a year after Henry Ford has unveiled Model T - you're likely to achieve a local maxima and claim a success, but the global maxima meanwhile changed significantly.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rectang on Friday June 02, 2017 @03:41PM (#14472751)
> I wouldn't assume people are stupid just because they work for Walmart.

The difference between the two parties is information asymmetry, not intelligence.

Walmart is organized and concentrated and can bring to bear entire departments of lawyers and analysts. It gets to repeat the transaction N times and amortize its costs across all the transactions.

The individual workers do not have such resources and are not unified. Each of them is at a severe disadvantage in the negotiation.

The result is an inefficient labor market.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by baby_wipe on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:23PM (#14473417)
If Walmart really is taking advantage of its workers, then why doesn't another company come in and offer better terms? Are you claiming Walmart has monopsony power over low-wage workers?
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by xenadu02 on Friday June 02, 2017 @06:15PM (#14473703)
Various firms do, both large and small, but it is extremely difficult to compete across so many fronts without a massive amount of capital (logistics, distribution, negotiations with manufacturers, real estate, marketing, product development, etc).

The return on investment for such a massive deployment of capital isn't huge and Walmart could adopt your strategies at any time, undercutting your value proposition. I'm also 100% certain there is a lot more collusion going on but with CEOs smart enough not to write it down in an email.

That said, a tightening labor market is forcing Walmart and other competitors to slowly raise pay.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by pfarnsworth on Friday June 02, 2017 @08:06PM (#14474118)
They have. The reason why Walmart had to raise wages is directly because of this. Walmart was looked upon as the employer of last resort and it was showing in the cleanliness of the stores. The stores were a mess and turnover was huge. Eventually the paymasters had to relent and open the purse strings.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by qmarchi on Saturday June 03, 2017 @01:46AM (#14475182)
Not entirely true. The wage raising is because of where the market is moving.

However, turnover is actually not as large of a problem as most would like to believe. Cashiers are the positions with the highest turnover rate, many other departments have employees that have been in the same store for many years.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by codedokode on Friday June 02, 2017 @07:20PM (#14473949)
Whys should other companies offer better terms? There is enough unqualified workers everywhere so there is no need to compete for them.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by analog31 on Friday June 02, 2017 @06:33PM (#14473784)
That's pretty patronizing. I wouldn't assume people are stupid just because they work for Walmart.

Maybe it could have been worded differently, but I interpreted it as being that the workers would have a hard time computing the totality of their costs, not that they are of particularly low intelligence. I suspect most people in the US don't know how to work out the financials on this deal.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by jbooth on Friday June 02, 2017 @03:27PM (#14472667)
It's not patronizing, I don't think I'm stupid and I had no idea of the insurance implications.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by angry_octet on Saturday June 03, 2017 @01:13AM (#14475103)
No, it isn't patronizing, it is the reality of 'negotiations' between mega corps and a disunited workers.

In fact, I find it pathetic that you call concern for the bargaining strength of low paid workers patronizing. That is a standard right-wing play, an every man for himself narritive, where rich coastal liberals look down on hard working Americans.

If Wal-Mart was being fair, or employees had a better negotiation strategy, or there were fair labour laws, there would be no question as to whether Wal-Mart would be the insurer, and employees would know exactly how many dollars they would earn, without having to gamble with life-altering risks.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by prostoalex on Saturday June 03, 2017 @01:45AM (#14475179)
It seems that lately chains large and small (Whole Foods, Stater Bros) are going the Instacart route, with both of these retailers advertising their Instacart URL at the store entrances.

I think even if the workers had a stronger negotiating position, it might not yield much, as anything they'd offer collectively would have to be a better deal for WMT than Instacart.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by TallGuyShort on Friday June 02, 2017 @06:24PM (#14473741)
Ask yourself if you think you're stupid, then read the entirety of the agreement for your car insurance (or any insurance, for that matter), and then ask yourself if you think you're stupid.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by angry_octet on Friday June 02, 2017 @11:42PM (#14474903)
And even if you read it, you're not actually qualified to understand it unless you're a lawyer. Even if you think you understand it, you don't.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rayiner on Saturday June 03, 2017 @02:49AM (#14475336)
The irony is that if a lawyer gave you legal advice about what a car insurance agreement means with zero background knowledge of insurance law or extra research, that'd be malpractice. But we hold ordinary people accountable for adhering to those agreements and understanding the implications.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by studentrob on Saturday June 03, 2017 @06:18AM (#14475715)
Nothing wrong with holding the lawyer accountable.

If someone purports to be a professional about something, I expect them to be, particularly about matters as serious as law. I suspect we hold them accountable because those are the people society has entrusted with such matters. Same goes for doctors and medical malpractice.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rayiner on Saturday June 03, 2017 @11:14AM (#14476746)
I'm not saying anything is wrong with holding the lawyer accountable. I'm saying that it's ridiculous to hold ordinary people accountable for complex consumer contracts. Even if you're a lawyer, you need either some familiarity with the relevant law or need to do some research to understand these contracts. We'd say it would be reckless for a lawyer to advise a client about such a contract with no background knowledge of applicable law. But we expect ordinary people to do it all the time and pretend like they understand what they're signing.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by jlarocco on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:00PM (#14473265)
I'm not sure the OP was being patronizing.

One alternative to this program would be to buy each store a Fedex style van (or a few) and have a few dedicated drivers make deliveries all day. Once you think about that for a few minutes, you start to see all of the costs that they're offloading to employees. Not just insurance, but also vehicle maintenance, gas, etc.

I'm sure Walmart has done a ton of cost/benefit analysis and churned through a lot of data before deciding to offer a program like this, and the employees will almost certainly not get all the details.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by sokoloff on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:52PM (#14473583)
If the delivery is on the employee's typical route home, this could be a win for both the employee and for Walmart (and a minuscule reduction in overall traffic and miles driven). That's not at all the case of Walmart buying a Sprinter van and driving it around all day on routes that weren't naturally being covered.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by jlarocco on Friday June 02, 2017 @06:33PM (#14473783)
You've completely missed my point. No doubt it's favorable to Walmart - they've had a team of people running the numbers and they get to set the rules.

The question is whether or not it's actually favorable to employees and whether or not Walmart will inform them of the costs they'll be responsible for. "Here's $10 to deliver this" sounds great until you realize it's $5 in gas, your insurance is going up $50 a month, and your car will wear out a year faster.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by gozur88 on Sunday June 04, 2017 @10:04PM (#14484865)
The math on this really depends on the assumptions you make. $5 in gas would carry my car an extra 40 miles, which isn't really my idea of dropping something off on the way home. As far as insurance goes, it would be easy for Walmart to get a group policy that covers you until you drop off the package, the same way they would for the delivery van.

People who make ten bucks an hour are really sensitive to these kinds of costs. If Walmart institutes a program that isn't worth it for employees everybody's going to know within a week.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by sokoloff on Saturday June 03, 2017 @08:21AM (#14476053)
The same question exists for Uber/Lyft drivers. I talk to them nearly every time I ride and for the most part, the drivers understand their costs in a rough sense. (I don't buy the "people are blind idiots" narrative that suggests that a commercial entity has all the power and we must protect people from corporations at every turn.) Only one driver (out of 40+ such conversations) struck me as the type who believed that his Uber earnings were straight profit into his pocket.

"Hey, there's $10 in it for you if you drop off a package on your way home." Let the employee decide if it's worth it or not. So long as there is no coercion, I don't need Walmart to educate the employees on maintenance, the cost of gas, etc. I do think it's fair and reasonable to disclose/inform/explain the insurance situation.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rectang on Saturday June 03, 2017 @12:59PM (#14477246)
> I don't buy the "people are blind idiots" narrative

That's like saying criminal defendants shouldn't have lawyers because they aren't "idiots".

The problem is that the negotiation between the corporation and the worker is skewed by information asymmetry. Furthermore, the cost of changing jobs is high, and the same negotiation disparities exist elsewhere.

Collective bargaining would address those concerns, as it allows workers to amortize the cost of analysis across all their transactions. But labor unions are a heavyweight solution.

It would be nice to see other suggestions from people who don't wave off concerns over information asymmetry as paternalism.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by SilasX on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:55PM (#14471992)
>Per the TechCrunch article, workers need to submit proof-of-insurance to participate.

I assume that's because of "we only want people on this who are insurable drivers in good standing to begin with" and not because of "we expect your personal policy to cover this".

>These additional costs make the deal worse for employees and better for Walmart in ways which are hard for the workers to understand. But I guarantee you that Walmart has studied it to death and knows exactly what advantage it brings them!

Walmart isn't Uber. I suspect they're much more cautious about making sure the relevant risks have the appropriate insurance. I also suspect they'll pay for mileage, but will probably try to get away with some "estimated increase in commute" rather than paying for the full distance to delivery.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by rectang on Friday June 02, 2017 @02:10PM (#14472110)
> I assume that's because of "we only want people on this who are insurable drivers in good standing to begin with" and not because of "we expect your personal policy to cover this".

The costs I enumerated accrue to the employee even if Walmart has insurance covering drivers while they are "online" and actively making deliveries.

If that even got by you, what chance does the average worker have?

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by SilasX on Friday June 02, 2017 @02:16PM (#14472145)
I get your general point (about non-obvious risks), but I addressed it with the point about compensated mileage, which is how these costs are paid for elsewhere. Edit: and it's not obvious at all that Walmart's policy won't cover any insurance missed by the personal policy, as is the case with Uber -- hence the comment!
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by Glyptodon on Friday June 02, 2017 @04:29PM (#14473064)
Where I work we need to submit proof of insurance to drive our own vehicles to job locations/for work purposes, but we are still covered under an employer policy when driving for said business purposes. They just don't want to deal with drivers whose vehicles aren't already personally insured (which seems sane). My understanding is that this is pretty normal, though I'm not 100% sure if it's an outgrowth of liability concerns or legal obligation. Either way, I can't imagine that Walmart wouldn't have a similar practice in place.

Not that I disagree that Walmart's cutting out hypothetical fleet maintenance costs with what they're doing. I'm sure there are a variety of advantages for them however they're structuring it.

Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by mahyarm on Friday June 02, 2017 @06:14PM (#14473692)
A lot of rideshare / delivery companies include insurance as part of their service fee while you are delivering / driving people. I would assume walmart would do something similar.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by LyndsySimon on Friday June 02, 2017 @04:37PM (#14473115)
Walmart's scale is such that they could easily self-insure.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by piffey on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:59PM (#14473622)
If they follow their usual model they'll probably find some way to offload the cost onto taxpayers.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by panzagl on Friday June 02, 2017 @04:48PM (#14473186)
Most pizza delivery is done using an employee's car, so I imagine this is a well-trod path legally.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by marme on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:08PM (#14473319)
yes and it has been ruled that while you are delivering a pizza you car is not covered by your regular insurance unless you have a commercial use policy
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by slezakattack on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:08PM (#14473321)
There are significantly more ride-sharing drivers on the road than pizza delivery cars.
Re:Wal-Mart will pay employees to deliver packages on their ... by obmelvin on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:54PM (#14473597)
Yes, but from a legal precedent standpoint pizza delivery cars are more relevant