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Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by treehau5 on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:30PM (#14397928)
I agree that there must be jobs, but with one important and subtle distinction. There should always be jobs for anyone willing to work. The difference is it leaves out the subtle dehumanization implied in your response (and I know it was unintended), and leaves out our limited, market-driven and popsci ideals about human intelligence out of it.

We have all met some damn smart people who never went to college, or learned how to read or write profeciently. My father was brilliant at arithmetic from learning to count money in restaurants and gambling. He was a middle school dropout. The trucker didn't all of a sudden go from stupid to intelligent once someone showed him how to read -- all he needed to do is for someone to teach him!

There is a wonderful TED talk about how our STEM-driven craze is a tragedy in terms of how it defines human intelligence by a renounced English teacher and professor, highly recommend it.

The short of it is we should never discriminate on arbitrary things like IQ, reading levels, etc, because we have no idea what even constitutes "intelligence", much less how to duplicate it from adolescent to adolescent.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:44PM (#14398221)
If it's a job that doesn't actually need to be done (i.e. it's only done to keep the person willing to do it occupied), is it still a job, or is it just a hobby?

You might say it depends on whether it pays or not... but if there's a paycheck in exchange for essentially useless work, it's just welfare in disguise.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by CapitalistCartr on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:03PM (#14398511)
During the Great Depression we had the CCC. They did a lot of good work that still benefits us today, building overpasses, flood control, trails and erosion protection in parks, fire lookout towers, roads, planted forests, and a ton of other useful stuff. Most of it wouldn't have gotten done otherwise, but we're better off for having it done.

Having said that, I'd start by simply funding as many small, <18 month road projects as I could. That'd suck up a lot of labor, tighten the labor market quickly and easily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by muninn_ on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:42AM (#14400412)
I personally would prefer that they spent time building housing, or parks instead of helping continue to subsidize car traffic.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Eridrus on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:13AM (#14400850)
That's great and all, but that seems like a temporary solution that works because we've underinvested in infrastructure, not something that can absorb large numbers of people indefinitely.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by toomuchtodo on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:36PM (#14398425)
> but if there's a paycheck in exchange for essentially useless work, it's just welfare in disguise

How many devs out there writing framework (or insert your idea of re-inventing the tech wheel again here) of the week at a job only because VCs are willing to burn up their capital for that lottery ticket?

"Useless" is highly subjective.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:52PM (#14398471)
"Useless" is highly subjective when you don't have enough information to render accurate judgment. But this is not the case that we're talking about.

Consider this simplified case. I hire you to sweep the floors in my apartment, and I pay you by the hour. I have a vacuum cleaner, but I don't offer it to you, because then you'd have done the job much sooner, and would be paid less - and I want to pay you more.

Do you see the absurdity in this arrangement? I hope it's fairly obvious. The moral choice in this case is, of course, to let you use the vacuum cleaner, but pay you the same amount as for manual sweeping (minus any amortization costs for the cleaner). I don't lose anything this way, since I've parted with the same amount of money. You have gained, because you've got the same money for less back-breaking work - and now you can either enjoy some extra rest, or perhaps go clean someone else's house and earn more money.

The difference in amount of work you performed in the first case vs the second case is the "useless work" here - and there's nothing subjective about it.

The difference in amount of money paid for a manual sweep and for vacuuming, if you were paid at the same rate for both, is the welfare, because I didn't have to pay you more than the market price of the hour of your work.

Note, I do not consider the term "welfare" to be in any way negative. I just wish we recognized it for what it is, and consciously designed our economic policies around it, instead of pretending that it's something else - in this case, by forcing people to do useless work for it just to satisfy our sense of "propriety" (that they shouldn't "get it for free").

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by eeZah7Ux on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @10:05AM (#14401251)
> I have a vacuum cleaner, but I don't offer it to you, because then you'd have done the job much sooner

In a way, this applies to most software work. While each company is just trying to survive, the world is rewriting hundreds of thousands of ERP, CRM, databases, OSes, libraries...

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jfoutz on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:53PM (#14398682)
Incidentally, what kind of vacuum do you have? I've gone through a few permutations, and nothing that sucks seems to really compare to a good sweeping. Roomba to Rainbow, it just doesn't pull up the dust the same way. To be fair, the broom leaves a lot of stuff behind, it seems like mopping phase is when stuff gets really clean.

But, uh, seriously, what kind of vacuum is it?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Moru on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:40AM (#14399038)
The vacuums have to blow out air too, and this stirs the dust you didn't vacuum yet. As soon as you are done this starts settling again. If you sweep the floor instead, with moist or antistatic cloth, you get most of it and it does not just resettle.

Back on topic I think many people that goes to higher education does not valuate the work of people that clean or do other manual laybour. I have done quite a few different jobs like cleaning, transport and servicing machines and it differs a lot between workplaces how much you feel appreciated. A school for example would not be able to stay open if noone was sweeping the floors every day...

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Mister_Snuggles on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:53AM (#14398886)
Not the person you asked, but Miele is worth a look.

I've got a C3, which I mainly bought to keep the pet hair and allergens under control. My only regret is that I don't vacuum nearly often enough.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:06AM (#14400081)
A canister Kenmore. In my experience, fancy vacuums are more trouble than they're worth.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:03AM (#14398717)
Have you tried a Dyson?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jfoutz on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:13AM (#14398752)
Actually, no. I've tried a couple bagless vacs, they're great on carpet. On a hard floor edges and wierd ridges and valleys seem to always get missed. Sweeping always seems faster when I have to screw around with special cases. Although I'm shooting for clean. Not pseudo clean.

I will do some research on dyson though.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by emilburzo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:58AM (#14398898)
I don't know where you are, but if they're available, I highly recommend a Karcher vacuum (I have the WD5).

(As long as you don't have small carpets, it's so powerful it'll actually lift them up)

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by LoonyBalloony on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:22AM (#14399208)
How about hard wood floors?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @05:37AM (#14399984)
If it's a job that doesn't actually need to be done (i.e. it's only done to keep the person willing to do it occupied), is it still a job, or is it just a hobby? You might say it depends on whether it pays or not... but if there's a paycheck in exchange for essentially useless work, it's just welfare in disguise.

I think the difference between job and hobby more lies with enjoyment and something that one would consider doing regardless of paycheck. Housework doesn't often reap a paycheck, but few actually enjoy it. That qualifies as work. Arts and crafts is usually a hobby, but some folks make it into a job with a paycheck. Few adults would look at being a cashier or janitor as a hobby. A small subset can be truly both - programming, for example.

I think the much bigger distinction between job and hobby isn't so much that the job is useless (as most jobs aren't quite so), but the demands it places on your life and family. You can stop your hobby to go to your kid's play, but can't always take off work to do the same. Some jobs give much less control over your lifestyle - like trucking - yet refuses to give back enough benefits to compensate. Fast food, retail, and others have other methods of not giving back. I think these are the jobs that are basically welfare in disguise.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by kwhitefoot on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:30AM (#14400162)
> Few adults would look at being a cashier or janitor as a hobby. A small subset can be truly both - programming, for example.

I don't think the distinction is inherent in the job but in the freedom and income that are generally associated with it.

I know a number of people who would be perfectly happy as cashiers if the cashier job had the same flexibility as my programming job. And to harp on UBI again: UBI by giving extra leverage to the employee might actually turn some jobs that are currently low status inflexible drone jobs into something that people will willingly do because they will have more control.

There are plenty of people who have a love hate relationship with their job because of the inflexibility imposed on them by the employer rather than anything that is fundamentally wrong with the core activity.

I don't mean that all employers are evil, they too are constrained by the current reality.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by dagw on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:25AM (#14399751)
It's a sliding scale. There is a lot of work out there that has some value, but that value is lower than the value the people are willing to do the job for. Let's say there is a job that is 'worth' $5/hour but it costs $12/hour to hire someone to do it. A reasonable argument could be made that the additional value generated for the government/society to get one person off of actual welfare and into the job market could be worth $7/hour.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by gabemart on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:56AM (#14399849)
There's also work where the overall utility generated might be much higher than the cost of the labor, but the utility generated specifically for the business or local government considering the project is lower than the cost of the labor.

Planting trees might only be worth $5/hour for the local lumber company, but the existence value of a new forest to the population generally might be many times that.

I suspect that the amount of potential work that fits into this category is enormous.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:17AM (#14400108)
This is an orthogonal issue, though - we're just not good at capturing the true benefits (and the true costs, including externalities) for many things.

Broadly speaking, though, I agree. This is one other case where we can do better - instead of constructing a "broken window" in the private sector and have the person repair it to keep them busy, directly utilize their labor for a socially productive task that may not be market-efficient.

But I'm not sure that there's enough of that kind of useful work (i.e. the kind that actually makes a difference) to keep everyone busy. It also feels like it's mostly easy to automate.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by kwhitefoot on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:31AM (#14400168)
> But I'm not sure that there's enough of that kind of useful work

Perhaps we should not worry about that until all the useful work has in fact been done.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:49PM (#14404618)
If we're retraining people to do it, we absolutely should, because we'd be spending significant resources for something that might prove a very short-sighted investment. It might be better to just invest that money into automation to do that same work instead.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by dagw on Wednesday May 24, 2017 @07:15AM (#14409105)
I imagine that most jobs that have a 'value' of ~$5/hour don't require much training. Also we could implement this policy tomorrow if we wanted to while automation is still many years out (at best) for a lot of tasks, so the two policies could be run in parallel.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:10AM (#14400090)
I seriously doubt there'd be much work around that has such low value, and that cannot be automated. And if it can be automated, what is the additional value to society to have human perform it instead?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by oh_sigh on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:19AM (#14399458)
There are endless jobs that should get done. No one would argue to do pointless jobs - maybe just jobs that are still useful but maybe not quite as useful to make it attractive to private industry?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:51AM (#14399600)
Who will decide what gets done?

Maybe that's so trivial that it doesn't even matter?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by int_19h on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:17AM (#14400113)
Are there endless jobs that cannot be automated that should get done? Automation is not just for private industry...
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by LoonyBalloony on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:20AM (#14399196)
Useless work to me is all the time and effort spent trying to possess things.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:48AM (#14399591)
I'm guessing you would've elaborated, but someone needed to use the computer?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Bakary on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:11PM (#14398096)
I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly, but the problem is that some types of intelligence become less useful than others as society changes. STEM-type intelligence becomes more in demand while a very smart person who lacks skills like these (whether they are not attuned to it or didn't have the opportunity to learn) will still struggle because the competition pool is so large that there are tons of people in the same situation and a limited number of ways they can become economically useful. The end result is likely to be a large scale dehumanization even for smart folks unless there is some intervention.

Edit: to clarify, the market driven popsci definition is paramount because the market determines your dehumanization

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by treehau5 on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:38PM (#14398629)
I hear what you are saying. I am challenging the assertion that intelligence has 'types'. The 'type' of intelligence (or in my terms, the more dominant expression of your intelligence) is largely geared by your early upbringings and what you were exposed to. I believe fundamentally we all have the same brain and same capabilities. Strictly speaking, the brain is an organ, but operates more like a muscle, and as such can be trained and improved just like any other organ or muscle in our body. Every single human being has the potential to be an Einstein, so to speak, in my opinion* we have just done a horrible job at a. figuring out what exactly is the right combination of training, motivating factors, and environmental influence to push more towards that direction, b. what it actually means to be an 'Einstein'

In any case, since most people have not had the fortune of having the good experiences that most of us here have, I think it is merely a common service to our fellow man and woman to treat them equally no matter what and provide equal opportunities for employment -- and that includes whatever the en-vogue measure of intelligence is out there today.

* to be fair to me: I formed my opinion over years long soul searching and embellishment in countless self-help and pop-sci books on self-improvement, finally forming opinions around sound science and not junk science. But I am also a human after all, and admit my understanding of the current literature can be flawed.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jdietrich on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:13AM (#14399700)
>Every single human being has the potential to be an Einstein, so to speak, in my opinion

Your opinion is completely unsupported by evidence. Do you truly believe someone with Downs Syndrome or a severe traumatic brain injury has the capacity to be a theoretical physicist?

The belief that everyone is capable of great things might be comforting, but it's ultimately very cruel. Many people will try their very hardest and get the best available support, but still struggle with the most basic tasks of life and work. Pretending otherwise just absolves us of responsibility. It's a get-out-of-jail-free card when we see people suffering.

We need a society that provides a good life for everyone, regardless of their ability to contribute. It's great if truckers can retrain to be software developers or psychotherapists, but we shouldn't be planning our society based on that assumption. Some people are very unlikely to develop advanced professional skills, but that's fine. They're still human beings and they're still entitled to a dignified and fulfilling life.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by bradknowles on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @12:23AM (#14398783)
The chemical composition of your brain may be nearly indistinguishable from mine, but the output of mine may be radically different than yours.

There are all sorts of "intelligence" that I just don't have. I don't get social cues. They just don't register for me. There is a "social intelligence" that I don't have. But I have seen people who clearly do.

Likewise, there are things that I find to be quite natural for me, and other people look at me like I'm crazy and they don't comprehend how I can do those things.

Whether you call it "intelligence" or some other word, I think the result is the same.

The Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation (http://jocrf.org/aptitudes) uses the term "aptitudes":

> Aptitudes are natural talents, special abilities for doing, or learning to do, certain kinds of things easily and quickly. They have little to do with knowledge or culture, or education, or even interests. They have to do with heredity. Musical talent and artistic talent are examples of such aptitudes.

> Some people can paint beautifully but cannot carry a tune. Others are good at talking to people but slow at paperwork. Still others can easily repair a car but find writing difficult.

Is that a better term than "intelligence" for what you had in mind?

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by Moru on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:49AM (#14399080)
My job exists only because a certain type of job has a lot more than average of people that can't write much. Mostly because of dyslexia or similar problems. My job is to completely remove the need for them to waste time on the writing part and let them do their job instead.
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by adwn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:43AM (#14401082)
> Strictly speaking, the brain is an organ, but operates more like a muscle, and as such can be trained and improved just like any other organ or muscle in our body.

Ironically, this directly contradicts your point of view, since your maximum physical potential is strongly determined by your genes. Only very few people have the potential to be a Usain Bolt or a Michael Phelps.

> Every single human being has the potential to be an Einstein, so to speak, in my opinion [...]

Well, it seems that your opinion is wrong, then.

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by malandrew on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @04:09PM (#14404831)
> There should always be jobs for anyone willing to work.

Willing to work != provide value someone is willing to pay for

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by twostoned on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @06:03AM (#14400068)
This might have been asked already but would you mind linking me to said TED talk?
Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by treehau5 on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @09:43AM (#14401080)
https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_cre...

I differ a bit, but the idea that we are shoving only one type of skill set over another is what he touches on. He argues a lot for creativity how it's over looked in modern schooling.

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_cre...

Re:Alone on the Open Road: Truckers Feel Like ‘Throwaway Peo... by jpttsn on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @03:45AM (#14399580)
Intelligence can be a real thing even if nobody knows how to teach it.