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Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by accountyaccount on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:26AM (#14393794)
I definitely support paying more taxes to improve the infrastructure/rural areas of the country, but I also start to think that maybe the country is just too big.

Are there any countries that are nearly this large that have a consistent quality of infrastructure for everyone? I live in a large city and it seems that even we have trouble maintaining up our roads/bridges/grid/telecom systems and we pay a lot of state taxes comparatively — I can't imagine how a much larger, less dense, less wealthy area filled with people staunchly against taxes could even begin to keep up.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by nightski on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:12AM (#14394224)
It's amusing there is so much misinformation on rural America on HN. You'd think it was mostly 3rd world by reading most of the comments on this post. I come from ND, which is an extremely sparsely populated state. However, don't let the rural nature fool you - per capita tax revenue was one of the highest in the nation. It's filled with rich farmers making more than many engineers here on HN. Most of the income comes from Oil & Farming but that excess money is being invested in developing a growing technology scene.

I regularly visit CA/SF as I have clients there. It's a beautiful place, but many things about living in ND are much more attractive.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by adpirz on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:25AM (#14394327)
I feel like ND is a bit of an outlier though, I can try and find the data to back it up. I lived in rural MS for a while, and parts of it felt close to parts of rural India that I've visited.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by accountyaccount on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:27PM (#14395388)
I don't disagree with you, but ND is a bit of an outlier. There are huge swathes of the once-prosperous rural south and midwest that are slipping into developing nation territory as their infrastructures degrade over time.

Many of the prominent examples of a successful rural area are either very self reliant (parts of NH serve as good examples, but the opioid epidemic is taking a toll) or reliant on a single industry that might just up and leave (airline manufacturing or fracking come to mind).

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by boomboomsubban on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:10PM (#14394732)
You're ignoring large chunks of your state, the reservations. They tend to better than the SD ones, but still have things like 50% unemployment.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by satsuma on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:45PM (#14395030)
ND is in a weird place thanks to the oil fields. I grew up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and while it was a pretty good living and I never felt like I was in a developing region, there were places that was closer to reality.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by BoiledCabbage on Monday May 22, 2017 @02:03PM (#14395669)
That's not a very good analogy. If you're going to compare ND and it's oil boom, then you need to contrast it with somewhere like Saudi Arabia which has very little economically except for it's oil production.

Or more accurately compare any of the non-oil related rural areas in the country. Or any of the particularly poor rural areas of the black or white southern US.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by earlyriser on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:26AM (#14394330)
Canada is bigger and with just 30 million people and the infrastructure is good. I live in a small city of 30k and sometimes I'm surprised how deteriorated the infrastructure is in big cities like Montreal (I also lived there for some years).
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by ojbyrne on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:42PM (#14395007)
Having lived in both Canada and the US, it's a reasonable counter-argument, but I'm not sure "bigger" is really applicable to this argument. Most of Canada is empty, the population lives on a narrow strip of land near the US border. And having driven most of the trans-Canada, I'm not really convinced the infrastructure is good.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by accountyaccount on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:18PM (#14395305)
I'd argue that majority of Canada essentially lives on the equivilant of an US coastline. The US population is larger by a factor of 10 and while we have population hubs, our overall population is less centralized than Canada.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by kevin_b_er on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:32AM (#14394388)
The less dense areas don't or won't soon: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2...

The Republican philosophy means rapidly shrinking public services. These area already have super low taxes and the conservatives who moved there don't want to pay anything that might benefit someone who isn't them. Such is the price to pay when selfishness is the primary political philosophy.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by tuna-piano on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:29AM (#14393827)
Yes, it would be great if we could sub divide the large country into smaller areas, and give each of those areas control over most of the roads / bridges / etc.

If spending and benefits are primarily local, shouldn't the decisions be as well?

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by dcdanko on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:46AM (#14393990)
You mean like the States?
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by accountyaccount on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:55AM (#14394065)
Sure, but there's no regional intermediary. Government scales from city, to county, to state... then straight to federal.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:48AM (#14394515)
> Sure, but there's no regional intermediary. Government scales from city, to county, to state... then straight to federal.

There are only 50 states. The median state is larger than Greece.

The true problem is that the federal government is responsible for spending three times as many tax dollars as all the states put together. The county government knows they need to fix the bridge, but the feds took all the money the local taxpayers could spare and spent it on not-the-bridge.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by breatheoften on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:54AM (#14394568)
How many of those federal dollars spent are for the military?
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by greedo on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:27PM (#14394877)
Roughly 16% of Federal expenditures go towards the military.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:07PM (#14394692)
Federal Outlays: ~$3.8T

Federal Defense: ~$0.7T

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by breatheoften on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:03PM (#14396929)
Heres a graph of federal revenues --

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/revenue_pie%2C_...

And here's a graph of federal spending --

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_...

In theory the payroll taxes from the first picture completely cover the spending on social security/unemployment insurance -- (and this is currently the case) -- so including that category in the total federal outlays is a little disingenuous when making an argument about too much federal spending/taxation if you don't intend to cut that source of federal spending/taxation ...

If what you say is true that the issue with u.s. infrastructure is entirely the result of too much money going to federal tax authority and not enough to local tax authority -- then to make more dollars from the federal budget available for local taxation you are going to need to do one of the following in order of which action affects the largest monetary amounts:

- argue for reducing payroll taxes and cutting social security benefits

- argue for reducing federal healthcare spending

- argue for reducing tax expenditures https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/taxexpenditures...

- argue for reducing the defense budget

- and then way down there at the bottom, the entire rest of the federal budget which is typically vilified as "government waste" and out of control federal spending by people who adamantly refuse to consider any of the above funding priorities when making arguments that try to scapegoat federal spending for regional management failures ...

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @01:38PM (#14403266)
> argue for reducing tax expenditures

Tax deductions are not a part of the $3.8T. If you were to "cut" "tax expenditures" with no change to the tax rate it would cause federal receipts to increase. If made revenue neutral by a corresponding reduction in the tax rate, federal spending would remain at $3.8T, all that would change is the distribution of the same total federal tax burden.

> In theory the payroll taxes from the first picture completely cover the spending on social security/unemployment insurance

They in fact more than cover social security, which is part of the problem. We have a highly regressive payroll tax -- janitors pay >15% while Warren Buffet pays <1% -- which is then used to collect more revenue than the program it ostensibly supports actually spends. The rest of the money is immediately spent by the rest of the federal government through an accounting fiction in which the government issues bonds to itself, as if the debt and the bond together could sum to anything other than zero.

> including that category in the total federal outlays is a little disingenuous when making an argument about too much federal spending/taxation if you don't intend to cut that source of federal spending/taxation ...

Eliminating payroll taxes is what we should do. Pay for social security from the general fund and let rich people and corporations pay their share.

And there is no inherent reason benefits would have to be cut to remove them from federal jurisdiction. Hand the entire program over to the states. It changes who is responsible for the problem, which allows it to be solved, because each state can make a rational local choice between different local needs.

Then you don't have inefficient decisions as a result of federal politics. Right now states like California are falling apart because they have a high cost of living, even though federal tax rates take no mind of that. Making $70,000 in California produces the same standard of living as making $35,000 in many other states, but causes the person in California to pay a higher federal tax rate and receive fewer federal benefits. The state then has to suffer or cover the benefits deficit while its people have less discretionary income for the state to tax, because a higher percentage of it goes to the feds which is then spent on other states.

That sort of interstate theft is inherent in large central governments. The people of California pay the brunt of the burden, but they aren't a majority of the federal legislature, so they can't stop it. The money goes primarily to cronies and large corporations (especially with federal healthcare spending), but there is a secondary benefit for people in low cost of living states who get subsidized by people in higher cost of living states, which gives it the votes to pass at the federal level and creates all of this waste. Wasteful and expensive programs are easy to pass because losing half the money to corruption is no impediment to passage when it was some other state's money to begin with.

> and then way down there at the bottom, the entire rest of the federal budget which is typically vilified as "government waste"

The waste isn't the NIH budget or NASA, it's in the structure of all federal spending. Social programs belong at the state and local level. Even the defense budget should be more local -- let the state-level national guard be a larger percentage of the military.

People malign the US healthcare system, but the root of the problem is that we have federal heathcare policy. It would be like trying to have a unified healthcare system for the whole EU, regardless of the different cost of procedures, income levels, cost of living or anything else between countries. It's not that Italy can't have a functioning healthcare system, it just needs different rules from the German one. California needs different rules from Alabama.

If you try to build one system that works for everybody, you end up with an inefficient bureaucratic mess that doesn't work for anybody.

Spain decentralized the healthcare system even within their state with positive results, indicating that the optimal scale for healthcare may even be at the county level.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by Balgair on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:12AM (#14394221)
Not always true. SF is both a city and a county, for example. Also, different states do it differently. Colorado has many cities that span county lines. Yes, going across the street in the same city means you now are under different laws. This isn't all that different than, say, a school district and it's tax base. We do also have regional systems, like the Mississippi/Colorado river watershed districts that help manage and maintain water usage in those areas. These inter-state issues have been cropping up for a long time (Bleeding Kansas, for an extreme example) and we mostly manage them pretty well and pretty silently. Turns out, the constitution actually does work alright.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by dgzl on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:27AM (#14394342)
It's my understanding that, from a constitutionalist perspective, states were meant to be sovereign and the Federal government was meant to have minimal presence. The idea is that states would be responsible for themselves only, through both success and failure.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by accountyaccount on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:37AM (#14393899)
I'd also imagine this could calm a lot of the "all our taxes go to the coastal elites" mentality and drum up support for local taxes (even though it's generally an errant stance).