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Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by phkahler on Monday May 22, 2017 @07:31AM (#14392647)
I think most of the division in US politics comes from the way representatives are influenced. By co-locating them all in Washington we enable destructive lobbying while keeping them away from the people they are supposed to represent. The party system is also destructive - I advocate against any legal recognition of political parties and against campaign ads funded by anyone outside the state a person is running in. These issues will not be addressed by the people in power though because they are part of the structures that need to be eliminated.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by unityByFreedom on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:00AM (#14392827)
> By co-locating them all in Washington we enable destructive lobbying while keeping them away from the people they are supposed to represent

Representatives do spend time in their own states. They also need a central place to meet. No country or system does this differently.

> The party system is also destructive - I advocate against any legal recognition of political parties and against campaign ads funded by anyone outside the state a person is running in.

I think rolling back Citizens United, which allowed corporations to donate unlimited amounts to candidates' [unaffiliated] campaigns, would be a big practical step in this direction.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by alistairSH on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:12AM (#14392896)
In addition to rolling back Citizens United would be to re-introduce pork-barrel spending. With changes to the legislative process in the 90s, Congressional leaders lost a strong carrot to keep the rank-and-file members playing along. In the current system, with no carrot, legislators are more inclined to follow the wishes of their constituents. And with extreme gerrymandering, those constituents can be very extreme.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by unityByFreedom on Monday May 22, 2017 @08:22AM (#14392932)
Pork barrel spending is special interest funding. It's not viewed as a good thing
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by alistairSH on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:26AM (#14393354)
That's true, which is why efforts were made to do away with it. However, as noted in the sibling, several political scientists have posited that the result was worse than the previous state of affairs.

In the previous system, if a legislator worked across the aisle on some big project, he might get a relatively small kick-back. A new bridge, funding for a pet project, whatever. At election time, he could point to that and say "hey, I worked across the aisle, and got this thing for you!"

Now, that pet project doesn't get funded. So, at election time, if the legislator goes across the aisle, he gets crucified by more extreme opponents. There is nothing to point to and say "I got you THIS!" The only incentive is to cater to the most extreme constituents to ensure a primary victory.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by ethbro on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:22AM (#14393323)
There was a pretty strong article a while back (and I assume parent likely also read) that sunshine laws and a decrease in special interest spending ultimately increased partisanship and decreased compromise.

Reason being that previous periods of American legislative politics were characterized by back room deals unknown to the public. This afforded politicans an opportunity to strike bargains with the opposition without having a spotlight trained on them (and being crucified in the next primary for "working with the enemy").

The check was that every 2/4 years voters still had an opportunity to toss out the incumbent based on his or her track record of results. (Admittedly without knowing how the sausage was made)

While I agree that transparency is a good thing, I'm humble enough to admit that the US legislative / election process is complex and has a lot of feedback. So the article's thesis seems plausible.

Which do you want more: non-partisan cooperation or absolute-transparency?

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:41AM (#14393454)
> Which do you want more: non-partisan cooperation or absolute-transparency?

Except you can have both as long as you ensure factual standards for news reporting.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by sqeaky on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:31AM (#14394376)
What about ignore how report works and fixing the gerrymandering?

I don't know how, but lets presume there is some way to fix gerrymandering so that a legislators constituency was a statistically fair representation of their region/state. Then the extreme views would be canceled out and the best way to win a primary would be to win a primary would be to appeal to the moderates.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:06PM (#14395223)
I agree, gerrymandering is also a big problem. John Oliver did a good segment about the justification behind bizarrely drawn districts, which kind of makes sense, so the real problem is leaving this power in the hands of the people who have an incentive to abuse it for their own benefit.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by sqeaky on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:28PM (#14395399)
Fair elections are supposed to the check on abuse. If constituents fairly re-elect people who line their own pockets, presumably that is what they want.

No amount of fair or unfair reporting will sway the minds of left wing or wing right loyalist entrenched in their view that their team is correct. A mix of opinions is required to get a different result on a given issue in a Democracy.

I don't know of any fair way to do it and I see the potential for abuse, but it makes want a poll test of some kind. No voting without critical thinking and a basic understanding of the issues you are voting on. But that can't work without abuse in anything like our current system. Fixing districts and voting methods is probably the best we can do until we see what problems that raises.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by alistairSH on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:59AM (#14393581)
Can you?

With the American primary election system, legislators are driven to cater to their most extreme constituents. With transparency, they can't work across the aisle AND also win a primary. At least with pork barrel, they get a tangible thing to point to while campaigning to attempt to appease constituents.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:11AM (#14394210)
Legislators are driven by extreme positions because of the perception that these positions represent enough voter sentiment to influence elections. In fact most constituents are more centrist, which factual reporting standards would highlight.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by alistairSH on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:54PM (#14395112)
I'm not sure that's correct for primaries.

Primary elections are by party, so are by definition more extreme than general elections. A candidate must win over an average Democrat OR and average Republican, not an average across all voters.

Further compounding the problem, many states/districts hold closed primaries and/or caucuses, which limits participation to those with a strong interest in elections (either enough interest to join a party and/or enough interest to give up half a day or more of time to join a caucus).

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by maxerickson on Monday May 22, 2017 @12:56PM (#14395134)
Yes, private organizations shouldn't have special methods for placing names on ballots, the rules should be the same for everyone.

Groups can still endorse candidates in that world, it just doesn't impact the names that show up on the ballot.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by blackbagboys on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:58AM (#14394614)
'Most' constituents may be centrist, but the constituents who vote in primaries generally are not.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by ethbro on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:54AM (#14394051)
You can only have both as long as you have a dispassionate electorate driven by logic and willing to research issues with the aid of a well-funded and independent press.

Given that I don't think we've ever had those conditions... lesser transparency for more cooperation seems a decent bargain.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:06AM (#14394157)
Like I said, mandate factual reporting standards and the news agencies will do the research for the people. That's their purpose after all.

Studies have shown that moderate positions need evangelists just as much as extreme positions, as people tend to cluster around the positions with evangelists. Mandating factual standards ensures evangelists at least have justifiable reasons for their positions.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by gnaritas on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:50AM (#14394535)
> Like I said, mandate factual reporting standards and the news agencies will do the research for the people.

You can't mandate factual reporting and still call it a free press as those enforcing the "fact" standards now control the press. You seem to think that you can't lie with facts, but it's quite easy, watch fox news they do it all day long. Free press and free speech mean just that; free and that includes lying and the supreme court has affirmed this to be true. You're talking about essentially removing the right to a free press.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:03PM (#14395196)
> You can't mandate factual reporting and still call it a free press as those enforcing the "fact" standards now control the press. You seem to think that you can't lie with facts, but it's quite easy, watch fox news they do it all day long

They're often quite non-factual actually. And you can't call it "press" unless it's factual, free or not. You can't just ignore one factor in favour of the other.

Furthermore, you seem to be assuming quite a bit about what I mean when by factual standards. Anyone can broadcast whatever opinions they like, so free speech remains intact, but to call yourself a news organization requires satisfying stricter criteria on fact checking, data sourcing and biased presentation.

Perhaps one thing that's ignored a lot: equal time/space should be given to retractions due to factual errors. That better aligns the incentives to get things right the first time.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by gnaritas on Monday May 22, 2017 @01:50PM (#14395574)
I sympathize with your goal, but you can't legally enforce journalistic ethics. And yes of course Fox is often non-factual, my point was one can be misleading with nothing but the truth and they demonstrate that constantly, stopping them from lying isn't going to stop them from misleading their audience.

The solution to bad speech isn't to ban it, it's just for others to put out better news. However, people don't seek out real news, they seek out confirmation of their existing beliefs so no amount of fair and accurate fact based reporting is going to change that, they'll still seek out whatever organization offers them confirmation of their biases whether it's called news or not. Fox is popular because it lies. The audience doesn't want real news; they want to believe what they believe and have it confirmed, nothing more.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Thursday May 25, 2017 @12:49PM (#14418452)
> And yes of course Fox is often non-factual, my point was one can be misleading with nothing but the truth and they demonstrate that constantly, stopping them from lying isn't going to stop them from misleading their audience.

Solving a problem doesn't always mean requiring something bullet-proof. Good enough can be enough. It won't stop some people from misleading with the truth, but a lot more people will be better informed than they are now, which is an important step.

> However, people don't seek out real news, they seek out confirmation of their existing beliefs so no amount of fair and accurate fact based reporting is going to change that, they'll still seek out whatever organization offers them confirmation of their biases whether it's called news or not.

Exactly, which is why factual standards are important to classify as proper journalism. They can still seek out their confirmation, but it will be more difficult to find it, and more difficult to convince others of their distorted realities.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by bitwize on Monday May 22, 2017 @03:43PM (#14396359)
Citizens United wasn't about campaign donations. It was about whether a corporation had the right to broadcast its own material endorsing or denouncing one or the other political candidate within a certain time window of an election.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:33AM (#14393400)
> They also need a central place to meet.

Not anymore. I'm sure the last 20 years of technological advancement hasn't escaped your notice. I think eliminating colocation is an idea that deserves serious consideration.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by unityByFreedom on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:56AM (#14393561)
I'm a software engineer, working remotely, and still prefer face-to-face conversation over phone or internet-video chats.

I'm glad that our representatives meet to discuss things. If they didn't, I imagine there would be more miscommunication about what's best for America than there already is.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by walshemj on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:19AM (#14393738)
Yeh right no offence but face to face debate does not work very well over teleconferences you need to have everyone in the room.

Having a president having to do PMQ's and maintaining the confidence of the house and senate might be a good thing.

Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by naasking on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:13AM (#14394231)
I don't know know if you've ever watched C-SPAN, but in person debate already doesn't work. In fact, the wisdom of the crowds effect works best when each actor in the crowd makes up their own mind without the influence of external actors.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by walshemj on Monday May 22, 2017 @06:20PM (#14397350)
Well the US house and senate are some what unreformed 18th century institutions one senator /congress man commented that the house of lords was more democratic - the is pre removal of most of the hereditary pears.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by votepaunchy on Monday May 22, 2017 @10:10AM (#14393664)
You can't just "roll back" Citizens United other than amending the Constitution or having a future Supreme Court overturn the ruling.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by wastedhours on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:01AM (#14394114)
The current US party system might be destructive, but am a believer in party politics - mainly because without it, to get anything done would take the form of voting blocs which can lead down the path to more backroom "scratch my back" deals.
Re:MIT economist believes U.S. is shifting to be more simila... by sqeaky on Monday May 22, 2017 @11:34AM (#14394394)
Isn't "backroom deals" just a negative way to describe cooperation and collaboration? If not please explain it to me and pretend I am really dumb on this topic, because I am.