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Re:Solar Roof by marcosdumay on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @05:41PM (#14311979)
It's because local photovoltaics can save a lot of infrastructure and can require nearly no labor.

You don't buy cold air piped from across the city, you make it locally. Why?

Re:Solar Roof by dagw on Thursday May 11, 2017 @05:37AM (#14314841)
You don't buy cold air piped from across the city, you make it locally. Why?

In Sweden it is quite common to pipe hot air (and to a lesser extent cold air) across the city rather than each house making it locally. Once of have the basic infrastructure in place it is a lot cheaper and more efficient.

Re:Solar Roof by vkou on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:13PM (#14312217)
> It's because local photovoltaics can save a lot of infrastructure and can require nearly no labor.

No, they don't. You still need almost the entire national power grid to supply your home with night-time electricity... That infrastructure won't be going anywhere.

An even worse outcome will be every home having local power storage infrastructure. Tens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars for a power wall, or a compressed air storage system is much more expensive then maintaining the grid.

Re:Solar Roof by bluehawk on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:36PM (#14312359)
Since we are discussing Tesla solar roofs, they suggest your installation comes with a PowerWall, thereby storing power during the day to use at night. I personally don't think we are there yet, but I think the goal is that you don't need the entire national power grid just for night electricity, just a big battery.
Re:Solar Roof by vkou on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:48PM (#14312439)
Batteries + roof PV, is far more expensive on a per-watt basis, then a power grid + utility-scale generation.

"Just buy a $15,000 PowerWall, which you will need to replace every 10 years" is, compared to grid electricity, incredibly wasteful.

There's a reason why customers and users overwhelmingly prefer centralization, even if its harmful for them in the long-term. It's cheaper, and people would prefer it to be someone elses' problem.

Re:Solar Roof by sbov on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @07:13PM (#14312579)
Have you done the math? If net metering didn't exist, my back-of-the-envelope calculations say it would probably break even in California. With net metering, sure, it's pointless.
Re:Solar Roof by vkou on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @10:20PM (#14313446)
My parents pay $1,200/year for electricity, in a fairly large house. Given the expected lifetime of a power wall, that will eat all the 'savings' of living off the grid.

There's also the matter that if, say, 40% of the population disconnects itself from the grid, that doesn't mean that the cost of maintaining that infrastructure will drop by 60%. Someone will have to pay for it.

Re:Solar Roof by crazy2be on Thursday May 11, 2017 @04:24AM (#14314567)
Where are you getting $15,000 for the powerwall? It's $5,500 for 13.5kWh, which should be enough for nighttime loads in many houses (but may require some inconveniences, like not running the dryer at night).

You are right that it does not yet work out, it's $0.17/kWh for the powerwall (assuming you fully charge/discharge it each night) + cost for panels. Given that grid-disconnected users would want some buffer, an off-grid system probably works out to ~$0.40/kWh all in for battery-stored electricity

You could save a big chunk of this by some habit changes, most of the cost comes from the batteries, so scheduling energy intensive activities to run during the day reduces your cost for them to $0.10/kWh or so.

Honestly I am surprised how close these numbers are. I initially was sure the grid would survive in cities, but now I am not so sure. In 10 years these numbers will likely be half what they are now (batteries in particular will be way cheaper). It might all be enough to kill the grid in many places.

Re:Solar Roof by greglindahl on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:40PM (#14312384)
In many places in the country, night-time usage is a lot less than daytime usage.
Re:Solar Roof by BillinghamJ on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:00PM (#14312116)
Cold air cannot be transported over long distances. Electricity can.
Re:Solar Roof by marcosdumay on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:13PM (#14312215)
Both can, with losses and infrastructure investment. The size of those are very different, and that's why you does currently create one locally and buy the other from far.

Photovoltaics can¹ change the other side of the equation² so that locally generating it would be better.

1 - But it's not certain by any means. The current biggest obstacle is battery storage and maintenance.

2 - losses and infrastructure costs vs. gains from scale.