News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by aphextron on Friday May 05, 2017 @10:54AM (#14273858)
>Try this: close your eyes and tie your shoelaces. No problem at all, right? Now, how well do you think you could tie your shoes if your arm was asleep? Or even if your fingers were numb? When working with our hands, touch does the driving, and vision helps out from the back seat.

I think this is an awful analogy. I can type just as fast on my touchscreen no problem without looking. The problem with having physical keyboards on a phone is space. You're taking up a solid 1/4th of the weight and bulk of a phone with something that is entirely dedicated to the single purpose of entering text. On top of that keyboards are a vector for dust and moisture to enter, making the phone less durable. There's a reason iPhone is the single greatest selling electronic device in history, and RIM is circling the drain. People want slim, sexy, lightweight touch phones. Not bricks with keyboards.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by Jaruzel on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:03AM (#14273930)
> People want slim, sexy, lightweight touch phones. Not bricks with keyboards.

I'm 'People' and I don't want that.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by DanHulton on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:14AM (#14274012)
You're "person". Sure, I'm being pedantic, but when you take a look at the overall market, the "people" being referenced, they do indeed want that.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by throwaway7645 on Friday May 05, 2017 @01:14PM (#14275044)
Unfortunately I think you're right and not sure why you're downvoted.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by Jaruzel on Friday May 05, 2017 @01:20PM (#14275095)
Just upvoted him, he's allowed his opinion, even though it conflicts with mine.

I may be a 'person' and not 'people', but imagine if we all had to drive the same car, or live in the same type of houses, just because the majority preferred it that way...

If there is enough of us who want something different that making or providing that thing is viable, then we should be allowed to have it, and have no-one criticise us for that choice. It is after all supposed to be a free world.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by throwaway7645 on Friday May 05, 2017 @08:47PM (#14277977)
Agreed. I use incredibly obscure programming languages, devices, hobby spoken languages, games...in almost everything I do outside the norm, not because I'm trying to be different, but that's what I like. The parent comment is just saying the market (most people) have spoken and we're not it. Just like I doubt you're an avid Java fan on HN (you might be, but I doubt it). The market has spoken on that and Taylor Swift...etc.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by harryf on Friday May 05, 2017 @01:23PM (#14275125)
Meanwhile I'm an outlier that thinks typing on a Nokia 1100 was more innovative than recreating a typewriter design that goes back to the 1870's
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by gcb0 on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:14AM (#14274017)
> I can type just as fast on my touchscreen no problem without looking.

either that is an exacerbate lie or you type extremely slow and full of typos when looking.

it's humanly impossible to use a glass screen without looking.

but by all means, if you did develop that skill, please teach the world. you migth even become famous.

(and all BB phones with keyboard of late have the same IPS rating as the iphone. not that anyone care about that)

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by ihuman on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:25AM (#14274111)
> it's humanly impossible to use a glass screen without looking.

I disagree. Its pretty easy (with autocorrect), once you've been typing on one for long enough (I've been using an iPhone for about 9 years). After a while it just becomes muscle memory; you memorize where they keys are and press them.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by soapdog on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:48AM (#14274302)
I think what they are saying is not that you can't type without looking at the screen, is that you can't use a touchscreen without glancing it at some time. For example: is the keyboard up? are you on the right app? did you by any chance dismissed the keyboard or is there a modal? You can't infer this type of interaction without looking at the screen. Touching on glass gives you no feedback.

As an anecdote, I have a galaxy note 4 here as my daily driver. The battery has been replaced but still, it doesn't last long. I want my phone to last at least until I get back home, so I decided to change some habits. When I commute to the university, I used spotify to listen to an offline playlist. I decided that listening to music with the smartphone could be replaced with a secondary device. I have a fondness for old minidisc format, so I found my old MD player (a sony mz-r700), recorded my playlists there and started using that while walking. That player has a remote full of buttons, real buttons to control basically all aspects of music playing, from navigation, to volume to anything. With my phone, I would often press play before leaving my building and not interact with it anymore. With the MD player and the remote, I can fiddle with all the controls without ever looking at the player in my pocket or the remote itself. In the end, I use my player features much more than I used the smartphone. I am not only a happier listener but it saves me phone battery.

In conclusion, tactic feedback that allows you to do stuff without requiring visual attention removes friction and encourages interaction. As an exercise to those that find this information disagreable, try typing a novel on a Yoga Book without looking at the screen, it is quite hard. Doing the same on a thinkpad is still hard but it is easier than the yoga book option.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by upvotinglurker on Friday May 05, 2017 @01:22PM (#14275119)
I've been using various models of the SanDisk "Sansa" MP3 player for years for similar reasons. Lets me listen to audiobooks/podcasts all day without wasting phone battery, and the controls I use most often (pause/play, forward, back, volume) are physical and can be located by touch alone. Also, durable enough for use during damp/dirty outdoor activities, and cheap enough not to be a big deal on the rare occasions that I do ruin one. Unfortunately they seem to be on the way out (Audible support for my newest model seems buggy and undocumented, and the SanDisk web site doesn't seem to push/advertise them much any more).
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by hiram112 on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:06PM (#14278457)
I've been using the clip for years, also. It's basically a much improved Shuffle which doesn't need iTunes, has a minimal screen, good battery life, and does what it needs to do well.

Unfortunately, the manufacturing seems to have gone downhill in the past few years.

I hope another company picks up where they left off about 4 years ago.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by dmix on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:40AM (#14274229)
The author of this Blackberry review even says that the physical keyboard has not increased his typing speed ability vs a touch screen, it just feels nicer. It's quite well known that a touch screen is just as comparable from a speed perspective.

Nor do I see how memorizing the location of keys would be very difficult.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by scrumper on Friday May 05, 2017 @04:47PM (#14276724)
This isn't really true. Your sense of proprioception is engaged with physical buttons yet bypassed entirely with touchscreens. You can walk down the street typing without looking at the screen if you have a real physical keyboard. Memorizing... No, you just can't. You can't reliably hit the same key with your thumb or finger (blindfolded) when it's a touchscreen, but you can easily do so with a real keyboard. Physical cues are really important: you can orient with the little bumps on the home row, or find your way from the edge.

This is not going to be a popular statement, but there's a reason why texting while driving is a problem now everyone has a touchscreen keyboard than back when we all had T9 and real buttons.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by metaphor on Friday May 05, 2017 @08:54PM (#14278006)
>> ...there's a reason why texting while driving is a problem now everyone has a touchscreen keyboard than back when we all had T9 and real buttons.

This. Texting while driving is still a risk any way you slice it, but my experience is that it's a manageable one, akin to eating a burger on the road.

I habitually text and drive. It's at least a 45 minute drive to the office on the best traffic-free days. To this day (knock on wood), I have neither been in a texting-induced collision nor can I recall being in any close calls as a consequence of texting. I've never owned a phone which didn't have a physical keypad either, thanks to the market offerings of Palm (if that's any indication of longevity) and BlackBerry. My current phone is a Priv. I feel the most dangerous part of texting on the road with it is the second I have to look down to press send on the touchscreen...it's always at the same position on the screen, but I have to move my right hand out of texting position to reliably touch it, which means I need to look.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by robotresearcher on Friday May 05, 2017 @06:53PM (#14277407)
On a touchscreen you find your way without looking from the edges and corners of the device. You don't need anchor points everywhere.

Violins don't have frets but experts can hit the notes.

I like buttons better too, but there's no need to exaggerate or claim impossibility.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by metaphor on Friday May 05, 2017 @10:47PM (#14278405)
>> Violins don't have frets but experts can hit the notes.

I posit that a fretless violin is more akin to a physical keypad than any traditional touch UI. I'm not a violinist, but I'd imagine these physical subtleties would take the form of neck taper, neck thickness, string pitch, string tension, etc. There's an equivalent feedback loop that stern advocates of the physical keypad simply can't discard, whereas traditional touch UIs are deadly efficient at "quantizing" such physical subtleties away.

As an aside, violinists generally don't have a day-to-day multitasking dilemma, say, serenading while driving.

Johnny Lee best explained[1] that the UX pays a cost whenever a UI fails to capture intent...and it's a cost that we often ignore when adopting new tech. Perhaps this cost may be insignicant to the typical low stakes consumer, but to a professional who spends much time corresponding over mobile, retaining a high level of confidence without visual verification or reducing the average number of errors per stroke or quickly adjusting to a new interface based on its tactile nuances is often all the justification that's needed to make the physical keypad an imperative.

[1] http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2011/07/myth-of-dying-m...

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by robotresearcher on Saturday May 06, 2017 @02:56AM (#14279090)
Just consider the difference between a fretted and non-fretted stringed instrument and the analogy is pretty clear.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by scrumper on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @09:08AM (#14307839)
It absolutely isn't. Sense of touch is very important in fretless instruments, but the real kicker is that you have the infallible feedback mechanism of your ears to help you fine tune pitch by rolling and bending your fingers.

It doesn't compare at all to touchscreen keyboards which have no feedback mechanism at all other than sight.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by bonestamp2 on Friday May 05, 2017 @01:17PM (#14275068)
Ya, I like typing on the iPhone keyboard but the BlackBerry keyboard is very powerful in that it also acts like a ton of shortcut keys that you can use from any application. I think that's actually the more compelling use for the physical keyboard. People who like keyboard shortcuts on their computer might really love keyboard shortcuts on their Android.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by mikestew on Friday May 05, 2017 @04:02PM (#14276413)
There's a reason iPhone is the single greatest selling electronic device in history

That reason might be that, despite its lack of a physical keyboard, the iPhone has enough other outstanding features that users are willing to put up with a shitacular on-screen keyboard with autocorrect that seems to get worse with the passage of time. Or at least that's my reason for continuing to own one.

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:25PM (#14278504)
Does anyone use a Swype​ style keyboard? I'm much faster with a swype keyboard than with any other type of keyboard, and this is of course impossible without a flat piece is glass.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by mikestew on Saturday May 06, 2017 @12:10AM (#14278625)
I'm using it right now. And boy does it suck ass. I mean, the keyboard itself is great. But it takes a long time too load, which I can live with. The ass-sucking part comes from that goddamn "change keyboard" menu. How does it work? Hold it down? Just tap it? I don't get consistent behavior doing either one. That's assuming it even wants to display in the first place. Every time I have to invoke the fucking thing I give serious thought to just uninstalling it.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by cmarinas on Monday May 08, 2017 @05:05AM (#14290186)
For a more consistent behaviour, I deleted the other default iOS keyboards (in Settings) and just left the swype-style one (Google's now, used Swiftkey before). Occasionally I get an iOS keyboard (without any language) but very rarely, I guess some timeout in opening the swype-style keyboard.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by mikestew on Monday May 08, 2017 @09:37PM (#14297099)
Thanks for the tip, I'll give that a go. I really want to like Swype, but the inconsistent behavior is beginning to break the deal.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday May 06, 2017 @12:22PM (#14280939)
It's my default keyboard on Android and I experience none of those issues.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by mikestew on Sunday May 07, 2017 @05:55PM (#14287915)
Sorry, should have specified iOS. Don't know that it makes a difference, but our two data points say "maybe".
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by vanderZwan on Saturday May 06, 2017 @05:27AM (#14279476)
> People want slim, sexy, lightweight touch phones. Not bricks with keyboards.

Good bit of weaselwording there... you already assume that the only option for keyboards implies having a brick. Not to mention asserting your own authority about what "people" want.

It's pretty damn naive to think that these design decisions where made with desires and needs of the consumer in mind, instead of with cost cutting for the producer.

But go ahead, brag about how you're good at using poorly designed technology and stop-gap solutions, since this obviously this discussion is totally about you after all /s

Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by la_oveja on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:05AM (#14273944)
This is a niche phone, if you weren't already aware.
Re:Blackberry Keyone Review: Part Productivity, Part Nostalgia by na85 on Friday May 05, 2017 @11:46AM (#14274290)
>There's a reason iPhone is the single greatest selling electronic device in history,

That reason is called marketing.