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Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Friday June 11, 2010 @09:49AM (#1423850)
While completely true, it also glosses over the bigger problem. Not All Kids Can Learn The Same. Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line. A child who can barely read in 3rd grade may be left behind his peers for ever, OR, he may suddenly 'get it' in 4th grade, and rapidly catch up. K-3, however, he's going to fail those standardized tests, and there isn't a damn thing his teacher can do about it. Holding every child to the same standard at the same age arbitrarily is ridiculous, and ignores the way kids actually grow and develop. It also has completely eliminated 'teaching' for all of those teachers who WERE awesome teachers, and who cared and poured their heart and soul into their lessons and kids. EVERYBODY is now essentially forced to teach to an arbitrary test, developed by academics (and lawmakers) who don't actually deal with children (anymore).

Poor black kids are going to stay lower than everyone else, because poor black kids, statistically, have much less family involvement, and a (again, statistically), substantially less 'structured' home life. THIS is the number one problem with the low end of the socio-economic academic performance ladder. Rich white kids and poor black kids attending the same class, at the same school, will not perform the same, unless the parents are both involved to the same amount. Making everybody take tests to prove this out doesn't accomplish anything. Firing teachers because parents won't do anything to help their children also does not accomplish anything.

This issue is near and dear to me - I worked in one of the school districts cited in the NYT article for 7 years, and my wife is currently teaching there. It's a farce.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by Dove on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:37PM (#1424054)
> Not All Kids Can Learn The Same

Supporting reference: Your Child's Growing Mind http://books.google.com/books?id=V1wfk_l2Ch4C

This is the classic practical book on brain development in children and adolescents. One of its main themes is that children mature in different areas at different rates, and that teaching them something before they're ready is fruitless, emotionally risky, and actually damages their later ability to reason naturally.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:42PM (#1424073)
Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line.

True, but most groups of 30-40 children are roughly the same. There will be a few smarties, a few morons, and a multitude of people in the middle. It's called the law of large numbers.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by nooneelse on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:55PM (#1424122)
This presupposes that classrooms can be thought of as random samples of the child population. We know that they are actually geographically localized samples, so that presupposition is somewhat strained and needs a bit of defending, preferably by empirical means.
Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:05PM (#1424145)
Obviously a given class is only a random sample from the population of a given school. So if you want to evaluate a teacher, all you need to do is compare his/her class to other classes from the same geographic region.

Or even better, you can compute a statistical predictor of his student's expected performance, and measure the deviation between predicted and actual performance.

The point is that individual variation in students is irrelevant. It is extremely unlikely that a teacher will get a class full of dumb kids.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by potatolicious on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:53PM (#1424114)
The bigger problem is that Not All Teachers Are Competent, or ever will be. We've really shot ourselves in the foot here - being a teacher is an absolutely thankless job, both financially and otherwise. This greatly limits your talent pool to the following:

- people who can't do any better in life

- people who love teaching so much that they are willing to forgo much more lucrative careers

Not only is this pool rather small, it also selects poorly for talent. This places the poor black kids (as you put it) at an even greater disadvantage, since their teachers lack either the talent or the inclination to pull them forward.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:14PM (#1424185)
Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work).

http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be...

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Saturday June 12, 2010 @12:44AM (#1425562)
I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but of the MANY teachers I know (I'm married to one, so I sort of meet a bunch of them), none of them work less than 50 hours per week. Not a single individual. Sure, they may be AT work for less than 50 hours, but everybody has to grade test/homework, write lesson plans, etc. outside of their normal classroom time. My wife works approx. 55-60 hours per week from late august to late june, for less than 45k/yr. While the long time off in the summer is great, it's not paid either (many people don't realize that). Teachers also have to provide virtually everything in their classroom - educational posters/implements, paper, pens, pencils, etc.; the local schools provide books and desks, and that's it. Each teacher gets $200/yr stipend, which isn't even enough for paper and glue for an elementary school classroom for the year. Only $500 of that stuff is tax deductible for a year (we routinely spend close to $2k/yr).

tl;dr: it's not thankless, but it's not exactly an awesomely compensated profession either - there's lots of hidden shit teachers have to do/provide that should count against their compensation.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by ktsmith on Saturday June 12, 2010 @02:11AM (#1425645)
I'll second this. My wife is also a teacher and every time I hear people talk about how little teachers work I want to scream. I don't know a single teacher that puts in less than 50 hours per week. In many schools teachers don't have any prep time any more and all lesson planning and other activities must be completed on the teachers own time. Summers aren't paid. Money spent in the classroom or on the students isn't tax deductible unlike damn near every other profession and their tools. Our school district doesn't have stipends, instead teachers provide a supply list and the school administrator determines what will be bought based on the available budget. Different schools have different budgets in many cases as some schools will qualify for extra federal funding via Title I for example. We have spent an average of 10% of my wifes yearly income on her classroom in each of the last four years ($3600). We also spend additional funds every year for my wife to attend continuing education or other training programs that she needs to meet her licensing requirements.

I'm often asked how we can possibly spend that much money on her class and it's a little bit complicated. While maybe $500 goes towards supplies such as pens, pencils, paper, notebooks, recorders and other basic implements we also spend money directly on the students. My wife typically buys every student a book for Christmas, we supply everything to holiday parties etc. Each year my wife spends another $500 or so on new wall hangings, new books for her library, teaching aids, resource books and more. The majority of the money however is spent taking care of the students in the most need. 100% of the schools students are on the free and reduced lunch program and the school is classified as Title II which means a dinner program is also provided to the neighborhood. Each winter we end up buying a large number of warm jackets, boots, gloves etc. In a neighborhood with 85% of the families living at or below the poverty level you wouldn't believe how much of a difference small amounts of help like that mean to the students and their families. My wife once had a student break down in tears when he received a winter coat. He told her that now his mom didn't have to worry about it and could pay the power bill. At Christmas we buy gifts (clothes) for the students that aren't included in the district wide program for the "underprivileged".

We certainly don't have to spend any of that money however my wife is there for the children and not for the money.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Saturday June 12, 2010 @10:06AM (#1426002)
Did you read my source? The American Time Use Survey measured both time spent working at home, as well as a number of other activities (e.g., sleeping, household labor). So your wife would appear to be exceptional as far as hours worked.

As for whether the summer is paid or not, so what? Your wife earns $54k/year, she just doesn't work all year.

Your quoted salary also completely ignores the fact that teachers in most states get benefits (e.g., defined benefit retirement at age 55, gold plated health care) which are vastly better than average. Teachers get more fringe benefits but less wages. Cry me a river.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Saturday June 12, 2010 @05:33PM (#1426568)
I did read your source. Did you read my post? 45 not 54k, not paid during the summer, and EVERY teacher I know works more than 50 hours week (dozens of them). The Survey you linked doesn't seem like it should be statistically accurate - it's not a random sampling of teachers, it's a pre-picked group of people, which is then culled for 'teachers' who are randomly picked.

Every salary'd job that requires a degree that I'm aware of gets benefits, and the benefits most school systems have are NOT better than average anymore. I pay less for health care, and have better retirement options at my private employer than any of the local school districts. We don't have a pension/retirement benefit (other than 401k), but school districts around here are laying teachers off and not hiring new ones because they don't have the money to pay them in the first place.

On top of that, most other professions don't require you to provide your own work supplies (ie: you get a paper to print reports on, pens/pencils and notepads, etc.), while teachers must purchase all of their non-textbook, non-furniture educational materials. Library of books, reams and reams of paper for work packets, colored paper, art supplies, science project materials (we've spent hundreds on various plants, moths, butterflies, etc. for life sciences experiments). Buying even paper and pencils for 72 kids over the course of a full school year is a non-negligble expense, especially at the salary being paid.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Saturday June 12, 2010 @05:59PM (#1426596)
$45k/10 months = $54k/12 months = $4.5k/month. Simple arithmetic.

The TUS is a random sampling of Americans, the report in particular is the same data restricted to teachers. But I'm sure you can do a better job of sampling by asking your wife and her friends than the BLS can by calling randomly selected people.

Regarding benefits, it varies from state to state. You may be unlucky and live in one of the few states where teachers can't retire at 55 (i.e., retirement benefits which are 2.8x better than those of normal employees, ignoring completely the costs of defined benefits). Most states, however, give ridiculously good fringe benefits to state employees at the cost of some wages.

Also, many professions involve purchasing various goods and services. Doctors often purchase medical supplies, consultants purchase equipment (laptop, etc), I purchase books, most people in banking purchase expensive signaling clothes (can't get promoted if you don't look the part). Really nothing unique here.