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Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by patio11 on Friday June 11, 2010 @03:58AM (#1423202)
“Educators feel that their schools’ reputation, their livelihoods, their psychic meaning in life is at stake,” said Robert Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest, a nonprofit group critical of standardized testing. “That ends up pushing more and more of them over the line.”

There is a certain strain of teacher who never felt their reputation, livelihood, or psychic essence was at danger when they were merely failing to educate, for decades. After all, to the extent that anyone noticed, it was poor black kids. Who the heck cares what they think.

That strain of teacher is now motivated by fear of exposure. Which is as it should be.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Friday June 11, 2010 @09:49AM (#1423850)
While completely true, it also glosses over the bigger problem. Not All Kids Can Learn The Same. Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line. A child who can barely read in 3rd grade may be left behind his peers for ever, OR, he may suddenly 'get it' in 4th grade, and rapidly catch up. K-3, however, he's going to fail those standardized tests, and there isn't a damn thing his teacher can do about it. Holding every child to the same standard at the same age arbitrarily is ridiculous, and ignores the way kids actually grow and develop. It also has completely eliminated 'teaching' for all of those teachers who WERE awesome teachers, and who cared and poured their heart and soul into their lessons and kids. EVERYBODY is now essentially forced to teach to an arbitrary test, developed by academics (and lawmakers) who don't actually deal with children (anymore).

Poor black kids are going to stay lower than everyone else, because poor black kids, statistically, have much less family involvement, and a (again, statistically), substantially less 'structured' home life. THIS is the number one problem with the low end of the socio-economic academic performance ladder. Rich white kids and poor black kids attending the same class, at the same school, will not perform the same, unless the parents are both involved to the same amount. Making everybody take tests to prove this out doesn't accomplish anything. Firing teachers because parents won't do anything to help their children also does not accomplish anything.

This issue is near and dear to me - I worked in one of the school districts cited in the NYT article for 7 years, and my wife is currently teaching there. It's a farce.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by Dove on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:37PM (#1424054)
> Not All Kids Can Learn The Same

Supporting reference: Your Child's Growing Mind http://books.google.com/books?id=V1wfk_l2Ch4C

This is the classic practical book on brain development in children and adolescents. One of its main themes is that children mature in different areas at different rates, and that teaching them something before they're ready is fruitless, emotionally risky, and actually damages their later ability to reason naturally.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:42PM (#1424073)
Every single child is completely different, and has a different learning capacity and developmental time line.

True, but most groups of 30-40 children are roughly the same. There will be a few smarties, a few morons, and a multitude of people in the middle. It's called the law of large numbers.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by nooneelse on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:55PM (#1424122)
This presupposes that classrooms can be thought of as random samples of the child population. We know that they are actually geographically localized samples, so that presupposition is somewhat strained and needs a bit of defending, preferably by empirical means.
Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:05PM (#1424145)
Obviously a given class is only a random sample from the population of a given school. So if you want to evaluate a teacher, all you need to do is compare his/her class to other classes from the same geographic region.

Or even better, you can compute a statistical predictor of his student's expected performance, and measure the deviation between predicted and actual performance.

The point is that individual variation in students is irrelevant. It is extremely unlikely that a teacher will get a class full of dumb kids.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by potatolicious on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:53PM (#1424114)
The bigger problem is that Not All Teachers Are Competent, or ever will be. We've really shot ourselves in the foot here - being a teacher is an absolutely thankless job, both financially and otherwise. This greatly limits your talent pool to the following:

- people who can't do any better in life

- people who love teaching so much that they are willing to forgo much more lucrative careers

Not only is this pool rather small, it also selects poorly for talent. This places the poor black kids (as you put it) at an even greater disadvantage, since their teachers lack either the talent or the inclination to pull them forward.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:14PM (#1424185)
Teaching is not remotely "thankless", they just trade wages for non-wage compensation (tenure, defined-benefit retirement at age 55), and work significantly less than most other professionals (for the 9 months/year when they actually work).

http://web.missouri.edu/~podgurskym/articles/files/fringe_be...

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Saturday June 12, 2010 @12:44AM (#1425562)
I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but of the MANY teachers I know (I'm married to one, so I sort of meet a bunch of them), none of them work less than 50 hours per week. Not a single individual. Sure, they may be AT work for less than 50 hours, but everybody has to grade test/homework, write lesson plans, etc. outside of their normal classroom time. My wife works approx. 55-60 hours per week from late august to late june, for less than 45k/yr. While the long time off in the summer is great, it's not paid either (many people don't realize that). Teachers also have to provide virtually everything in their classroom - educational posters/implements, paper, pens, pencils, etc.; the local schools provide books and desks, and that's it. Each teacher gets $200/yr stipend, which isn't even enough for paper and glue for an elementary school classroom for the year. Only $500 of that stuff is tax deductible for a year (we routinely spend close to $2k/yr).

tl;dr: it's not thankless, but it's not exactly an awesomely compensated profession either - there's lots of hidden shit teachers have to do/provide that should count against their compensation.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by ktsmith on Saturday June 12, 2010 @02:11AM (#1425645)
I'll second this. My wife is also a teacher and every time I hear people talk about how little teachers work I want to scream. I don't know a single teacher that puts in less than 50 hours per week. In many schools teachers don't have any prep time any more and all lesson planning and other activities must be completed on the teachers own time. Summers aren't paid. Money spent in the classroom or on the students isn't tax deductible unlike damn near every other profession and their tools. Our school district doesn't have stipends, instead teachers provide a supply list and the school administrator determines what will be bought based on the available budget. Different schools have different budgets in many cases as some schools will qualify for extra federal funding via Title I for example. We have spent an average of 10% of my wifes yearly income on her classroom in each of the last four years ($3600). We also spend additional funds every year for my wife to attend continuing education or other training programs that she needs to meet her licensing requirements.

I'm often asked how we can possibly spend that much money on her class and it's a little bit complicated. While maybe $500 goes towards supplies such as pens, pencils, paper, notebooks, recorders and other basic implements we also spend money directly on the students. My wife typically buys every student a book for Christmas, we supply everything to holiday parties etc. Each year my wife spends another $500 or so on new wall hangings, new books for her library, teaching aids, resource books and more. The majority of the money however is spent taking care of the students in the most need. 100% of the schools students are on the free and reduced lunch program and the school is classified as Title II which means a dinner program is also provided to the neighborhood. Each winter we end up buying a large number of warm jackets, boots, gloves etc. In a neighborhood with 85% of the families living at or below the poverty level you wouldn't believe how much of a difference small amounts of help like that mean to the students and their families. My wife once had a student break down in tears when he received a winter coat. He told her that now his mom didn't have to worry about it and could pay the power bill. At Christmas we buy gifts (clothes) for the students that aren't included in the district wide program for the "underprivileged".

We certainly don't have to spend any of that money however my wife is there for the children and not for the money.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Saturday June 12, 2010 @10:06AM (#1426002)
Did you read my source? The American Time Use Survey measured both time spent working at home, as well as a number of other activities (e.g., sleeping, household labor). So your wife would appear to be exceptional as far as hours worked.

As for whether the summer is paid or not, so what? Your wife earns $54k/year, she just doesn't work all year.

Your quoted salary also completely ignores the fact that teachers in most states get benefits (e.g., defined benefit retirement at age 55, gold plated health care) which are vastly better than average. Teachers get more fringe benefits but less wages. Cry me a river.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by count on Saturday June 12, 2010 @05:33PM (#1426568)
I did read your source. Did you read my post? 45 not 54k, not paid during the summer, and EVERY teacher I know works more than 50 hours week (dozens of them). The Survey you linked doesn't seem like it should be statistically accurate - it's not a random sampling of teachers, it's a pre-picked group of people, which is then culled for 'teachers' who are randomly picked.

Every salary'd job that requires a degree that I'm aware of gets benefits, and the benefits most school systems have are NOT better than average anymore. I pay less for health care, and have better retirement options at my private employer than any of the local school districts. We don't have a pension/retirement benefit (other than 401k), but school districts around here are laying teachers off and not hiring new ones because they don't have the money to pay them in the first place.

On top of that, most other professions don't require you to provide your own work supplies (ie: you get a paper to print reports on, pens/pencils and notepads, etc.), while teachers must purchase all of their non-textbook, non-furniture educational materials. Library of books, reams and reams of paper for work packets, colored paper, art supplies, science project materials (we've spent hundreds on various plants, moths, butterflies, etc. for life sciences experiments). Buying even paper and pencils for 72 kids over the course of a full school year is a non-negligble expense, especially at the salary being paid.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by yummyfajitas on Saturday June 12, 2010 @05:59PM (#1426596)
$45k/10 months = $54k/12 months = $4.5k/month. Simple arithmetic.

The TUS is a random sampling of Americans, the report in particular is the same data restricted to teachers. But I'm sure you can do a better job of sampling by asking your wife and her friends than the BLS can by calling randomly selected people.

Regarding benefits, it varies from state to state. You may be unlucky and live in one of the few states where teachers can't retire at 55 (i.e., retirement benefits which are 2.8x better than those of normal employees, ignoring completely the costs of defined benefits). Most states, however, give ridiculously good fringe benefits to state employees at the cost of some wages.

Also, many professions involve purchasing various goods and services. Doctors often purchase medical supplies, consultants purchase equipment (laptop, etc), I purchase books, most people in banking purchase expensive signaling clothes (can't get promoted if you don't look the part). Really nothing unique here.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by Natsu on Friday June 11, 2010 @05:33AM (#1423315)
This is one place where cheaters can really ruin a system. Once cheaters invade, they can hurt everyone by raising expectations of what can be done. Worse, too often, the natural tendency is to raise the standards if some cheating is uncovered.

If you raise your standards high enough, those who were formerly honest will be forced into cheating while those who remain honest are forced out. If you raise standards high enough, you end up with only cheaters, because past some threshold, it's no longer possible to meet expectations honestly.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by ktsmith on Saturday June 12, 2010 @02:32AM (#1425655)
You don't need cheaters to reach a point where the expectations are so high they are unattainable. If you read the growth measures listed on the government education sites you'll see that states have proposed plans with ridiculous claims such as having ALL students passing their exams by 2014. While there are modified calculations for special education students this is still almost certainly unachievable in reality.

A perfect example would be the high school that I attended. This is a school in a small community (40k people when I attended, maybe 60k now) with a significant amount of wealth. The high school specifically has received massive amounts of donations for both academics and sports. Since the inception of NCLB the school has routinely made AYP however in 2008-2009 the school did not. The reason the school didn't is entirely due to students receiving "Individualized Education Plans" (IEP). With the mainstreaming of special needs and special education students this means that an entire school is being placed on the needs improvement list due to a small subset of the population receiving special education services.

I fully expect that in the next three to five years the vast majority of schools that have routinely made AYP will no longer be able to show adequate growth. When the children of upper middle class families start attending "failing" schools you'll start to hear a lot of complaints about NCLB.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by tokenadult on Friday June 11, 2010 @08:47AM (#1423640)
If you raise standards high enough, you end up with only cheaters, because past some threshold, it's no longer possible to meet expectations honestly.

Evidence for this empirical statement?

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by Natsu on Friday June 11, 2010 @03:18PM (#1424397)
I'm not claiming that it is what's happening in teaching right now, mind you. I'm just claiming that it's certainly possible. I've certainly seen the idea happen elsewhere (it's how I came to realize that).

I will say that the statement relies on the assumption that honest folks cannot get a perfect score consistently. Although, even then, if one person always gets a perfect and the other person goofs up rarely and the business has to lay one of the two off, guess what usually happens?

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by jerf on Friday June 11, 2010 @01:37PM (#1424053)
That statement as written is trivially true. The question is whether it is what is occurring, which isn't going to be possible to ascertain. I don't think anyone really has a firm grasp on what it is possible for an average child to learn, which would be a prerequisite to answering the question.

(There is some idea what an average child can learn in our current system but that's such a small part of the possible state space of educational systems I don't pay much attention to it.)

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by tokenadult on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:55PM (#1424318)
Yes, I was referring to the space of actual school systems around the world, and standards they would ever be likely to adopt.

For good information about what is possible for young learners around the world, see

http://nces.ed.gov/timss/

and

http://timss.bc.edu/

For thoughts on how to improve teaching in United States schools, see (among many other sources)

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

or

http://mit.edu/6.969/www/readings/ma-review.pdf

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by kwantam on Friday June 11, 2010 @02:02PM (#1424140)
This is similar to the argument against allowing steroid use in various professional sports. If you can't compete unless you compete dishonestly (I'm not taking a side here on the question of whether steroids are actually bad, but if they're banned then their use is certainly cheating), eventually everyone cheats.

The obvious difference is that in the case of steroids in sports, it's an arbitrary system designed primarily to entertain people and make money; the outcomes are completely irrelevant to the success of the enterprise as such. In the case of child education, if everyone cheats, no one learns, and we've just raised a generation of dishonest, ignorant children.

Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by tptacek on Friday June 11, 2010 @10:07AM (#1423906)
Not so sure about your logic. Were they motivated by fear of exposure, or were they motivated by enhanced financial incentive to cheat? The answer to that question has implications.
Re:Under Pressure, Teachers Tamper With Test Scores by ktsmith on Saturday June 12, 2010 @02:24AM (#1425653)
The financial incentive to cheat seems to be a new issue and is certainly not even a valid issue at many schools. Nevada doesn't pay teachers bonuses. Teachers at Title I G schools will be eligible for bonuses in 2010-2011 but that is part of the Title I G grant. Of the only school I am aware of in Northern Nevada that is being investigated for cheating, the school is a charter school that also does not offer bonuses. My wifes very close friend taught there during the 2009-2010 school year (not the year causing the investigation) and the issue appears to be due to a breach in protocol during testing. An administrator had students from classes with young and inexperienced teachers that didn't know or weren't trained on the testing protocols called to his office. The claim is that these students tests weren't collected while they were out of the room, they were not escorted to the office, and the administrator coached them or provided them answers. There may be more schools under investigation in southern Nevada (Clark County/Las Vegas most likely). The other schools that I'm aware of being investigated are all charter schools. They are being investigated for misappropriation of funds or other abuses but not cheating.