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Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by krapp on Monday May 01, 2017 @07:00AM (#14236697)
>The Japanese has plenty of opportunities to surrender but they kept fighting and fighting and fighting.

It's odd how this is portrayed as a negative aspect of Japan's militarism, when the Allies were fighting the same war with the same attitude.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Monday May 01, 2017 @08:18AM (#14236971)
Particularly when it's not even true. The Japanese wanted to surrender long before the Bomb was dropped, on condition that the Emperor remain in place.

The US insisted on unconditional surrender, prolonging the fighting and resulting in the atom bomb attacks, then ended up accepting the Japanese condition anyway.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by PerfectDlite on Monday May 01, 2017 @01:17PM (#14239419)
> then ended up accepting the Japanese condition anyway

What?? Japan was forced to accept Allies' condition.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Monday May 01, 2017 @05:29PM (#14241850)
As I said in my post, the essential Japanese condition for surrender was that the Emperor remain in place.

After rejecting that, thus prolonging the war and using the atom bombs, the US ended up keeping the Emperor in place (ie accepting the previous Japanese condition) anyway.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by krapp on Monday May 01, 2017 @07:00PM (#14242542)
I may be wrong, but I believe the Japanese wanted the Emperor to remain in place and retain his power - the US was merely willing to not kill him as long as he remained a figurehead and publicly renounced any claims to authority.
Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Monday May 01, 2017 @11:57PM (#14243860)
Whatever may have eventually been negotiated, and perhaps nothing would ever have been agreed, it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.
Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by krapp on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @05:39AM (#14245143)
The recording of the Emperor's surrender had to be sneaked out to NHK studios past a military coup in progress, so certainly not everyone was convinced.

Personally, I tend to believe that the nukes, the potential cost of defending against an invasion of the mainland by the US, and Russia's invasion made surrender look like the obvious choice, but remember that the initial plan for Pearl Harbor assumed a negotiated surrender with the US which, Japan hoped, would let them keep certain territories necessary to maintain supply lines for their colonial wars, which was what they really cared about.

Fanatical resistance by the military, both due to their own racist ideals and out of the fear for self-preservation (the Japanese people, the Western world and the rest of Asia basically hated Japan's government by the end,) drew the war and the surrender out longer than it needed to be.

Although, I also believe the main reason the US dropped the atomic bombs is that we had them, and therefore needed to justify the expense of making them by using them. It's likely that, without Japan's surrender, the US would have used nuclear weapons and invaded Japan at the same time.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @01:34AM (#14253299)
> Fanatical resistance by the military, both due to their own racist ideals and out of the fear for self-preservation drew the war and the surrender out longer than it needed to be.

That doesn't seem to be what you were originally arguing:

> It's odd how [Japan "fighting and fighting and fighting"] is portrayed as a negative aspect of Japan's militarism, when the Allies were fighting the same war with the same attitude.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by PerfectDlite on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @10:19AM (#14246523)
Ю it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

How is this a myth if nukes were mentioned in emperor's address as a reason to surrender?

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @12:56AM (#14253157)
I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding here:

Because, as I've said, at least twice, they were already considering surrender even before the atomic bombs were dropped.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by PerfectDlite on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @12:04PM (#14256967)
Yes. But if atomic bombs were mentioned as a reason for surrender, why you're calling it a myth?
Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:32AM (#14262663)
Because being one of numerous factors is not the same as being the only factor, or even necessarily the deciding factor.
Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by PerfectDlite on Thursday May 04, 2017 @11:13AM (#14265394)
What numerous factors are you talking about? Did they got a mention in emperor's address?
Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Friday May 05, 2017 @12:05AM (#14271040)
Since you're asking me what's in it, I assume you haven't read it. Why not do that now; it's not hard to find online.

After that, please read some basic WWII history before stringing this thread out any longer, if you're seriously unaware of anything but the atom bomb that didn't go Japan's way in 1945.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by charles-salvia on Monday May 01, 2017 @10:26AM (#14237649)
> It's odd how this is portrayed as a negative aspect of Japan's militarism, when the Allies were fighting the same war with the same attitude.

That's not the point, obviously. The point is Japan's militarism combined with their utter over-the-top brutality and expansionist agenda.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by krapp on Monday May 01, 2017 @07:06PM (#14242578)
> The point is Japan's militarism combined with their utter over-the-top brutality and expansionist agenda.

Everything Japan learned about Imperialism it learned from the West, though. The Empire of Japan may have been brutal, but the Allies were hardly angels in comparison, or lacking in their own expansionist ideals.

Re:A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet by quirkafleeg on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @01:02AM (#14244068)
> the Allies were hardly angels in comparison, or lacking in their own expansionist ideals

Well quite. How was Japan able to attack "the USA" (itself established by over-the-top brutality and expansionism) in the first place? Because the US had earlier overthrown, occupied, suppressed and militarised territories that are actually closer to Tokyo than Washington DC.

How dare some Asian country think it could colonise Asia, when Asia belongs to the US and Europe.