Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License

Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by gonzo on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:00PM (#14234352)

He didn't claim a P.E. he said he was "an excellent engineer" in an email.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by hprotagonist on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:02PM (#14234361)

separate to his email about traffic lights, his website offers his services as an engineering consultant. that's a major no-no.

he was warned twice and then got a slap on the wrist after he did it again after saying he wouldn't.

edit: and yes actually, saying you're "an engineer" in an email to the state traffic board _is_ claiming a PE when you don't have one.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by snowwindwaves on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:15PM (#14234422)

http://www.jarlstrom.com/index.html

has his website changed? It doesn't say professional engineer anywhere on it.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by hprotagonist on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:27PM (#14234490)

The language here: http://www.jarlstrom.com/consulting_.htm

particularly advertisement of services as an expert witness, etc, all are problematic under oregon law. In particular, you cannot be an expert witness without being a PE.

They go into this in the complaint PDF with relevant sections of law, etc.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by wtallis on Sunday April 30, 2017 @08:18PM (#14234688)

>particularly advertisement of services as an expert witness, etc, all are problematic under oregon law. In particular, you cannot be an expert witness without being a PE.

> They go into this in the complaint PDF with relevant sections of law, etc.

None of the quoted regulations in the complaint mention being an expert witness or even use either of those words.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ghaff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:56PM (#14234617)

I don't know Oregon law specifically but I've been an expert witness and don't have a PE.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by wtallis on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:49PM (#14234591)

> separate to his email about traffic lights, his website offers his services as an engineering consultant. that's a major no-no.

If the state board has a legitimate complaint about the language used on his web site, they shouldn't undermine their own authority by also bringing up bullshit complaints about doing math without a license. It makes the state board look like they've got a vendetta against the guy.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by mdekkers on Monday May 01, 2017 @04:09AM (#14236205)

bullshit complaints about doing math without a license

Which is not what they are complaining about. They are complaining about him presenting himself as an engineer, which is something he did, and shouldn't have done in Oregon. They gave him a warning about it, and he continued doing it. That wasn't smart on his part.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by astrodust on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:59PM (#14234347)

This is why the term "software engineer" is very divisive.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by nialo on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:12PM (#14234406)

This may be a reason why, but it's not a great one. The vast majority of people employed in the US with "engineer" in their job title are not Professional Engineers.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ClearAsMud on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:18PM (#14234438)

Ya, it's just a made up title to make people feel important, to be honest.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ghaff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:23PM (#14234470)

It's a professional certification. You can argue about how much significance it has but it's certainly not "made up."

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ClearAsMud on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:35PM (#14234529)

I'm talking about folks that call themselves engineers, where they clearly are not. A PE has an exam with credential requirements and an apprenticeship under another PE for a period of time + having to retake that PE exam in order to get that designation. I COMPLETELY understand the PE part of it. It's the software developers that use the title of engineer that irks me. Or HR folks baiting software developers with a title of "engineer" when they clearly are NOT qualified to be that - both by credentials or by the PE designation. Engineers are engineers, scientists are scientists (and equally less qualified in comparison to engineers). Are scientists important? Absolutely .. for me, it's more about the semantics of use and the validation of it.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by nialo on Sunday April 30, 2017 @08:01PM (#14234634)

I wasn't particularly talking about software engineers. I have a mechanical engineering degree, and none of the ~20ish engineers at the first place I worked had a PE licence. If you want "engineer" in a job title to mean "has a PE licence", you're going to need to change the title of perhaps 95% of people currently employed in mechanical or electrical engineering. Probably more than ninety percent of aerospace engineers too. There is maybe an argument to be made that programming shouldn't be called "software engineering", but this really isn't it.

Also for whatever it is worth, I've now worked in mechanical engineering for 5 years and software for about 1 year, and they both feel the same to me. Software is sometimes faster and sloppier, but I think that's just because the build process for a program takes minutes and the build process for the CVD machines I used to design takes months.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ghaff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:42PM (#14234558)

Well, good luck with that. Back when I was in the oil business, there were even mud engineers--or mud salesmen as the toolpushers called them.

I certainly don't favor the idea that every software engineer/consulting engineer/etc. should have to get a PE before they can call themselves by that title.

You're welcome to feel differently but don't expect a lot of support.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by astrodust on Sunday April 30, 2017 @08:06PM (#14234647)

Just like "Doctor" and "Prime Minister".

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ghaff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:06PM (#14234380)

Not really. But there are specific situations, e.g. signing off on things related to regulatory agencies, where PEs are required. Lots of engineers in a variety of engineering professions have no need for PEs but some do.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by GavinMcG on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:09PM (#14234393)

Keep in mind that "not really" may be dependent on where you're at. It is divisive in some places. More so Europe than the United States.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ghaff on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:13PM (#14234414)

Fair enough. In the US, "engineer" is used pretty widely--including by people who are clearly not engineers. (I could name a number of examples from the oil business.)

PEs are mostly about certifications needed to sign off on things in some cases. I got an Engineer-in-Training certificate but never had the need to get a PE.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by strictnein on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:16PM (#14234425)

Strangely, the first software dev title I got with "Engineer" in the title was from a European company. "Applications Engineer"

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ClearAsMud on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:15PM (#14234423)

See, it's not divisive at all to me. There are two types of degrees - a computer science degree and a computer engineering degree. If you are an engineer - your paper says so. If you are a scientist ... you are a scientist. There is a very BIG difference. Folks that write software can be both engineers and scientists. However, there are key differences in the applications of being an engineer. Just because I write E=mc^2 on a board and apply it to some problem in front of me, doesn't make me a theoretical physicist - it just makes me a guy writing on a board, a formula that a physicist might use. In the case of the story, he's a mechanical "engineer". He isn't a guy off the street calling himself an engineer. He has the education to match the claim. HUGE difference. Software engineers have degrees that state they are. Software / computer scientist can be thrown around more liberally, but a software ENGINEER cannot.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by PhasmaFelis on Sunday April 30, 2017 @09:23PM (#14234898)

"Software Engineering" and "Computer Engineering" are different degrees. I think you're actually talking about software engineering; computer engineering has a heavy focus on hardware, and wouldn't be the first choice for someone who's mainly interested in programming.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by strictnein on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:19PM (#14234442)

Software engineers would typically have Computer Science degrees, not Computer Engineering degrees.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by ClearAsMud on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:23PM (#14234468)

Software engineers w/o degrees are just software developers. They are not engineers, by any stretch of the term. Engineering principals applied to software, including performance analysis and validation are done by engineers. There is a big difference. Actually a HUGE difference. This isn't most likely going to be popular here, because a lot of industry folks who are in the epicenter of SF just like the title more than the job .. but it's fact, IMHO. I don't mind having discrediting titles all the time, but it's more ego that pushes it. I could care less about a title, so I'll call it out all the time. Scientists are not engineers.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by strictnein on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:57PM (#14234620)

> "but it's fact, IMHO"

That's not how facts work.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by aphistic on Monday May 01, 2017 @03:46PM (#14240835)

> I could care less

Obviously not an engineer.

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Re:Yellow-Light Crusader Fined for Doing Math Without a License by astrodust on Sunday April 30, 2017 @08:08PM (#14234656)

Software "engineers" have Computer Science degrees.

"Software Engineers" have Engineering degrees.

Example is University of Waterloo Software Engineering: https://uwaterloo.ca/find-out-more/programs/software-enginee...

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