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Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by anon_7523 on Saturday April 29, 2017 @11:50PM (#14230075)
My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them:

- They are not required to learn German, so they speak very little to sometimes none at all. - They can only pick companies where speaking only English is tolerated. - Since they speak English, they tend to stick to themselves and cannot integrate. Some of them have a hard time even ordering food. - Indian Bachelor degrees are not comparable to German degrees. I have the feeling that there are some good universities, but others are nowhere near the German standard. Their skill levels are usually lower than these of their German counterparts. It makes sense: I have talked to people, who came from a small village and used a computer in their undergraduate course for the first time. - When you talk about their plans, it becomes clear, that they aimed for the US or the UK and took Germany only for the price and are often not planning to stay, but to take the next opportunity to board a plane to the US.

At the moment I do not think it makes any economical sense for Germany. I would do the following:

- mandatory German language courses - mandatory German language knowledge, even for English speaking courses - much stricter admission standards, individual tests instead of trusting non-EU standards - better integration with the labor market - maximum to the number of months you can stay in a dorm (already the case for German students) - initiatives to form German + foreign flat shares (primary way of living for students in Germany)

At the moment we are just sending the bad students back home and the good students to the US, after they got a free education here.

The local university close by reacted and increased the required GRE test scores to Ivy League level. The admissions dropped by an order of magnitude.

Germany is very social-democratic when it comes to education, so politicians avoid the word "elite", but when it comes to picking talent, you really should not. I think Germany should capitalize on the political climate in other countries and pick quality over quantity. A tax paid university should not be a third-world aid program.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ar0 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:20AM (#14230880)
Give them some time. The big U.S. and U.K. universities have decades of experience in selecting the best and the brightest from around the world. They have huge admission teams that know the local education markets and can tell you which Chinese university's degrees are first-class and which are not.

For German universities, having to select foreign students is a new development and it will take time and a bit of trial & error to get it right. It's the same in Switzerland: every Swiss high school graduate can attend university, so an "admissions process" just didn't exist there. And now that many international students want to attend Swiss university, you get a lot of students in master's courses who don't have the required pre-requisities. But I'm confident the universities will learn and build up these capabilities.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by trident117 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @11:35AM (#14232012)
I would have to agree with you being an Indian student in Germany right now. I have seen a lot of Indian/Pakistani/Middle-Eastern students at my University with lower skills than what is usually desired of them at a Master's level. Of course, I can't generalize and there definitely are a lot of talented students in the mix as well. One interesting fact is, that my University recently reduced the number of admissions given to International students with probably some changes to the admission criteria, the standard of new students has now increased.

Also, you are right about some Universities being closer to German standards than others in India (I guess every country has good and bad Universities, the onus here is on the German Universities to identify the right ones and improve the admission criteria). I personally do not see a lot of difference between my University back home in India and the one I am enrolled at in Germany.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by discordianfish on Sunday April 30, 2017 @05:08AM (#14230737)
This comment is so German on so many levels.

The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ar0 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:16AM (#14230869)
I think you are confusing "tech companies" with "web start-ups". Germany has a different focus than Silicon Valley and thus a different type of "tech" jobs as well. There are a lot of challenging engineering and IT jobs where you will work together with top-notch colleagues in industrial automation, mechanical engineering, etc.

Note that Elon Musk is still dreaming about building tunnel boring machinery, while at Herrenknecht you can already innovate in this field today.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by anon_7523 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:38AM (#14230934)
There are good tech jobs in Germany. They are not SV-level paying, but rents are also not San Francisco level and you get healthcare, pension funds and unemployment benefits. Of course it can always be better.

What better than German tech jobs are there in the UK? It is not about the jobs. They are aiming for a language they already know, but want to get a free education on the way.

My point is, that taxpayers should benefit from their investments. There is nothing wrong with creating a lock-in, which is silly btw.: There is a German speaking market of > 100 Mio speakers, you can benefit from. Nobody in the Philippines or India speaks German. See what kind of job opportunities Turkish-German people have in Turkey.

If your point is true and there are no tech-jobs, we can benefit from it, then stop the program and work on that first. The foreign students also would, because except for 3 neighborhoods in Berlin and Frankfurt, you cannot integrate into German society without some German language knowledge and without a proper skillset.

The German economy is heavily based on the Mittelstand with so called "hidden champions", one does not know about, but who are the global market leader in smaller, obscure markets. They often sit in a village somewhere in rural (but rich) Southern Germany. No way, you can make it there without German language knowledge.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by d33 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @05:53AM (#14230816)
What makes this post German? It sounds convincing to me and I'm not German.

Also, how would creating the jobs reduce the risk mentioned by anon_7523? Do you believe it's a bad idea to integrate the people you already provide with education, for free?

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by anon_7523 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:04AM (#14230987)
I guess, he is talking about the mindest, that you can fix everything with rules, without fixing the underlying problem (that I don't see in this case).

I would add calling something "typical German" is also typical German :)

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by sgift on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:11AM (#14230852)
> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany.

The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany.

I've fixed it for you.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by mafribe on Sunday April 30, 2017 @10:16AM (#14231598)
Where are those highly paid tech jobs in the UK?

Apart form a bit of fin-tech in London, most programming jobs in the UK are quite badly paid and not comparable with US/SV salary levels.

I see what my UK-based students are earning, and it's typically not really above German levels.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by wolfgke on Sunday April 30, 2017 @10:15AM (#14231591)
> The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany.

This is also wrong. I would rather say "there aren't well paid tech jobs in Germany if you don't know German on a decent level".

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ed_balls on Sunday April 30, 2017 @05:36AM (#14230790)
If you'd double my salary I still wouldn't move to Germany. Learning a new language is too big investment.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by jernfrost on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:25AM (#14231040)
I can't speak for Germany, but e.g. in Norway and the Netherlands which I know best, there are a lot of nice tech jobs and you don't have to speak a word of the native language. I know because I've had colleagues over a decade who don't speak the native language and who are still just fine.

Most tech companies today use english as work language anyway. Not necessarily social talk among people, but usually in meetings, emails, documentation etc.

Still I recommend learning the local language. It has advantages but it is not something you are completely dependent on.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ed_balls on Sunday April 30, 2017 @01:19PM (#14232628)
You can survive sure, but I'd be really hard and expensive to start a company. How am I suppose to read german law and fill government forms? Have a lawyer to everything for me? Thanks no thanks.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by fbender on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:20PM (#14234181)
You'll have a hard time starting a company or anything without consulting a lawyer or legal service in Germany. And you won't be taken seriously e.g. by banks etc. Fortunately, cost for legal advice on this matter is significantly less than in the US, AFAIK. Plus, you have the bonus of being able to do business in 27+ countries with marginal or no extra effort.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ed_balls on Monday May 01, 2017 @10:49AM (#14237886)
In that case I'd prefer to start a company in Poland. Much lower taxes, cost of infrastructure, legal, labour, capital requirement for LTD (25000 EUR vs 1200 EUR).
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by discordianfish on Sunday April 30, 2017 @05:42AM (#14230802)
Not even talking about attracting talent but retaining it. That being said, in Berlin startups you don't need to speak german. You just need to be down with working for a shitty salary at a meaningless e-commerce project or copycat that is never intended to succeed.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by anon_7523 on Sunday April 30, 2017 @06:58AM (#14230971)
I think you are essentially confusing "tech" with "web" (granted SV mostly does the same). Go to Southern Germany, if you want tech jobs, not Berlin.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by sparkling on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:17AM (#14231013)
You can live and work in Berlin without speaking single word of German.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by mafribe on Sunday April 30, 2017 @10:18AM (#14231609)
You can, but Berlin is not (yet) where most of the interesting high-tech jobs are. Moreover, if you want an interesting social life, eventually you'll have to learn the local language, there's no way around it.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by captainmuon on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:27AM (#14231047)
My experience in Germany is the exact opposite, foreign students are usually the most communicative and the most dedicated at the same time.

And it is not like getting a degree is an automatism. If you are bad, you will fail and drop out. There has been an inflation in grades in the recent years, but most degrees are still hard to obtain and require that you really learn what you are doing.

Maybe it is different in different fields, but at least this is my impression in physics and the natural sciences.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by sparkling on Sunday April 30, 2017 @07:15AM (#14231012)
I can confirm most of this, also talking from personal experience during my Bachelor and Masters studies. The majority of Non-EU students that come here seem to have a very hard time. I have no idea how they passed the German language test, most of them speak very little german, definitely not enough to fully understand a lecture held in German. Their prior education is not comparable to the required standard that native students must meet, so most of them are doing rather badly grade-wise.

When i talk to them, most of them state they wish to return to their home country once they finish their degree here. Needless to say, there are exceptions to the rule that hustle hard, excel and plan to stay in Germany once they finish.

In summary: Germany seems to get the B or C level bunch of students, while the A level students go to the US or the UK.

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by rdl on Monday May 01, 2017 @12:45PM (#14239130)
What about having high standards on tests and some kind of practical evaluation, but not requiring third-party credentials to enroll, particularly at the graduate/professional level? i.e. not going for the 18 year old undergraduate market, which is very competitive, but something more unique.

(My German is 1- to 1 right now, but I could probably get to 2- to 2 without too much work over a year, but I have no undergraduate degree. If I wanted a professional degree without completing undergraduate, I'm mostly stuck with UK schools (LBS, LSE, ICL being the top options) in MBA or Econ, or a back-door "special student" PhD route somewhere. If there were a German institution which made this straightforward, it would be worthwhile for a lot of people in the mid-career stage in technical fields who don't have formal credentials. Those people would be far more likely to remain in Germany, or at least to maintain some connection to Germany.)

Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by alismayilov on Monday May 01, 2017 @03:12AM (#14236065)
I did my master in Germany and I work in German company now. Yes, I speak little German, but I am improving it. My friends also came to study in German universities. At least half of them stayed here and all of them speak at least some German. I think companies also benefit a lot from this. It is much easier to hire somebody who already lived and studied in Germany than who never been here. Me and my friends are here, because German universities are free. Otherwise, we would not neither here nor U.S. and U.K. Because they are very expensive, there is no way to come from third world country and afford all expenses.
Re:Why Germany Educates International Students for Free by ryanalam on Monday May 01, 2017 @09:27AM (#14237286)
"A tax paid university should not be a third-world aid program."