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Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @08:31PM (#14199523)
Many ways to skin a cat. Design roads properly, sure. But I'm pretty confident that more aggressive ticketing would decrease speeding. Red light cameras certainly have that effect on red light running, and the negation just seems absurd to me. As a bonus, aggressive ticketing requires no new infrastructure.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by zaphar on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @09:17PM (#14199741)
What you propose is taking something that has essentially 0 effect on speed right now. And then doing that thing harder. Furthermore the result of not having an effect on speed but posting an authoritative sign that has little to no reflection of the actual speed has a detrimental effect on safety for pedestrians and non-automotive traffic.

There's a famous saying that goes something like this: "The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result."

The article is proposing not doing the insane thing and instead doing something that studies show have the actual effect desired.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:19PM (#14199982)
I don't think either of the following have been established:

1. We should expect existing lax enforcement to have a significant effect on speed.

2. Existing lax enforcement has a nonexistent effect compared to the baseline (no enforcement at all).

Even if you established both of these, it still wouldn't be sufficient to make the logical inference that rigorous enforcement would be ineffective for decreasing speeds. It would not be at all surprising that behavior goes unchanged if enforcement rates are below 0.1%. It would be very surprising if enforcement rates closer to 10% had no power to change behavior.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:22PM (#14200193)
The problem is that it's really an economic problem. The existing enforcement is a revenue generation method -- everybody exceeds the speed limit, so you can put a cop anywhere who can just sit there and hand out tickets. It's net income for the government, but there isn't enough enforcement to actually change behavior.

If you added more police then people would stop speeding, but then people stop speeding -- there is no more ticket revenue. Now how are you paying for all the traffic cops?

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:42PM (#14200265)
That's an interesting technical problem. PID controllers answer a similar problem in control theory. I don't have the answer here, and I'm not certain there is one. It really depends on how many more cops we'd need to get to a state where enforcement can be rigorous, and whether we as a society prefer the tradeoff of paying for those enforcers to get safer roads. Tough question. But I like tricky questions aimed in a true direction better than easy, wrong answers like, "ticketing people has no effect on speeding."
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by vertex-four on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @05:23AM (#14201645)
If people were to stop speeding, perhaps there'd emerge a culture in which speeding is considered bad, reducing the need for traffic cops.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by empath75 on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @06:56AM (#14202021)
As soon as you stopped enforcing, people would speed again.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by vertex-four on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:16AM (#14203651)
In cultures where e.g. drunk driving is considered an awful thing to do, people mostly self-regulate - there's some policing necessary, but it's not like the police are trying to stop something everyone wants to do. There's no reason it would be impossible to create a culture in which speeding is treated similarly.

There's quite a few countries in which people avoid speeding, even when there's no cameras around.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:09PM (#14204263)
Aggressive enforcement isn't how you do that. And it's a lot harder to do it with speeding than drunk driving because it actually is a lot more dangerous to drive drunk than to drive the 85th percentile traffic speed even though the speed limit is set 10MPH lower than that.

In most of the existing places with a culture of respect for the speed limit, they have a higher speed limit.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by zaphar on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @05:53PM (#14207382)
Fair enough. The article may not have sufficiently established such a thing. But enforcement when it works is likely to only work when enforcement is frequent enough to create an expectation of getting caught. Given that this would require a significant increase in manpower to truly be effective I'm not sure it's sustainable.

I suppose you could find a way to automate it similar to red light cameras but even those have been shown to be rather ineffective at actually lowering the incidence of violations so I'm not sure anything less than the presence of a police vehicle with flashing lights that pulls up behind you would have an effect.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by bsder on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @08:50PM (#14199623)
> But I'm pretty confident that more aggressive ticketing would decrease speeding.

It's also a good way to push people onto alternate roads which may be more dangerous or go through a neighborhood. It's also a good way to get people to completely avoid your roads and make your city or town dry up and blow away along with anybody that your roads connect.

The question is: What's the goal?

The article shows you how to increase safety.

What is your goal in busting speeders?

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:24PM (#14199999)
Where in the article is there any experimental evidence, or evidence of any kind, that increasing speed limits increases safety? They found one guy who thinks it does, which is not very convincing.

My goal in busting speeders is to increase safety. I just think the article is poorly reasoned and unconvincing in its claim that raising speed limits is an effective way to do that.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by mos_basik on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:12AM (#14200376)
>When the speed limit is correctly set at the 85th percentile speed, the minority of drivers that do conscientiously follow speed limits are no longer driving much slower than the speed of traffic. The choice of the 85th percentile speed is a data-driven conclusion -- as noted Lt. Megge and speed limit resources like the Michigan State Police’s guide -- that has been established by the consistent findings of years of traffic studies.

>This is important because, as noted in a U.S. Department of Transportation report, “the potential for being involved in an accident is highest when traveling at speed much lower or much higher than the majority of motorists.”

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by LoSboccacc on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @02:58AM (#14201016)
And again, because everyone thinks a speed it's safe doesn't mean a speed it's safe.

People may believe it is, but phisics laws are hard to fool. Meanwhile people are well known to not understand risk and probability.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by u801e on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:34AM (#14202407)
Posting speed limits that reflect actual traffic speeds decreases speed variance and decreases the frequency of crashes.

That's actually safer.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by LoSboccacc on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:35AM (#14203310)
speed and severity of crashes correlation is quite established in literature, so I'm gonna wait for a study to come up with conclusive statistical data stating speed variance correlates more with injuries than absolute speed.

until then, it's conjecture, feelings and wishful thinking.

edit: then again urban and highway situations are different, so there's that. but you have truck and slow traffic on the highway anyway thus increasing car limit does increase speed variation in that situation and would be detrimental whether variance or absolute speed are considered

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by u801e on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @11:55AM (#14204101)
> speed and severity of crashes correlation is quite established in literature, so I'm gonna wait for a study to come up with conclusive statistical data stating speed variance correlates more with injuries than absolute speed.

That is if a crash happens. If you compare crash rates and fatality rates on limited access highways where speeds are higher to other types of roads, you'll find that the former is lower on both counts.

> but you have truck and slow traffic on the highway anyway

Trucks do not drive that much slower than cars unless they're going uphill or have a speed limiter. With higher speed limits, slower traffic will most likely speed up to some extent and trucking companies may remove their limiters (or increase the speed where they kick in).

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @06:54AM (#14202014)
Which studies? What did they show? Again, the fact that some guy claims a study shows he is right does not count for evidence.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by jakobegger on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:24AM (#14201112)
The way to go are automated radars, that are clearly visible.

They recently installed a new radar at a local highway, right at the beginning of a speed limit.

Everyone sticks to the speed limit now.

A different section of the highway has "section control". (Cameras at the beginning and end of a section that record license plates and determine average speed). Nobody speeds there either.

With todays technology it is trivial to enforce speed limits everywhere, and people really do stick to the speed limit if they know that there are consequences.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by terryf on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @04:19AM (#14201356)
So you like the fact that the police know exactly where and when you drove? Because the licence plate tracking cameras require that, you know.

Also, the notion that there is some universal speed limit that makes driving safe on a particular road is silly.

Two scenarios with speed limit of x: 1) sunny day, brand new porsche, new tyres. I'm driving at a sped of x+5 2) windy, snowy day, nissan sunny from the 80s with almost worn out tyres. I'm driving at x-5

Pick the safer one. I doubt anyone would think option 2 is safer, yet 1 is illegal and 2 is perfectly fine.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by nicky0 on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:32AM (#14202398)
I see. Your'e saying: since speed limits aren't perfect in all cases, so lets not have them at all.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by terryf on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:45AM (#14202464)
I do believe in increasing personal responsibility of people and having less of a nanny state, so I do tend towards that answer, but it's really not that black and white. On highways and places where pedestrians and bicyclists are not allowed - yes, no speed limit makes a lot of sense (and is available in Germany for example)

In cities and suburbs where kids can run into the street in unexpected places - more thought is needed what is the best solution.

I've actually gotten a speeding ticket because I was going 35km/h in a "construction" zone with a temporary 30km/h limit on a freaking Sunday with nobody around. That is also clearly ridiculous.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by u801e on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:26AM (#14202360)
> They recently installed a new radar at a local highway, right at the beginning of a speed limit. > Everyone sticks to the speed limit now.

Has this also resulted in traffic bunching up? That is, long lines of vehicles tailgating each other?

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by godshatter on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:54PM (#14204750)
I live near a couple of rural small-town speed traps. Yes, I have learned to set my cruise control to 45mph at the sign that is a ridiculous distance from town on otherwise normal highway to avoid tickets. The problem is, not everyone is a local, so you have people driving 45 and people trying to drive 60+ on a two lane highway with all the tailgating and reckless driving that entails. The speed trap isn't making anyone safer, it's just making those police departments richer.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by Retric on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @08:59PM (#14199666)
Red light cameras increase accidents because people speed up if they think they are even slightly close to the limit.

Think of it this way, which changes behavior getting a ticket in 4-6 weeks by mail or having a cop pull you over today. Or worse watching someone get a ticket, or possibly noticing a flash and having no idea what it's from.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:16PM (#14199970)
Your ideas about what red light cameras do are contradicted by the actual studies done to see what red light cameras do. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05048/...
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:34PM (#14200235)
Red light cameras increase rear end collisions and decrease side impact collisions; but side impact collisions are more dangerous.

The problem, of course, is that there is a better way to reduce side impact collisions -- and red light running in general -- which is to increase the length of the yellow light.

But because doing that actually does reduce the number of people who run a red light, the intersections with red light cameras do the opposite of that, because they need people to run red lights in order to generate revenue and pay for the cameras. And if you compare the results at red light camera intersections with short yellow lights against normal intersections with appropriately timed yellow lights, the cameras are killing people.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by douche on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @08:03AM (#14202258)
In my experience, I don't see that longer yellow lights really help much - people just keep going through until the light turns red. At least in this state, as long as you have already entered an intersection before the light turns red, you haven't run the red light.

I would think that a better strategy would be to increase the delay before turning the next light green, after the last one turned red.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by u801e on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:14AM (#14203108)
> In my experience, I don't see that longer yellow lights really help much

Studies done in Virginia and Texas contradict that assertion. Increasing the yellow phase time decreased the incidence of red light running and the effect was sustained over time.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:43PM (#14200275)
I'm interested to read a citation that shows that increasing yellow light length is superior to RLCs. Please send it my way. Thank you.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:38AM (#14200465)
Compare the percentages for right-angle crashes on page 63 of your link to the numbers here:

http://saferstreetsla.org/wp-content/uploads/reports/A%20Com...

Assuming the number of right-angle crashes is proportional to the number of people who run red lights, the reduction due to having a longer yellow light is larger than the reduction due to the RLC. And that's before considering the rear-end collisions, which a red light camera increases but a longer yellow light reduces.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:00AM (#14202037)
This is interesting, but it seems to mostly be focused on violations rather than crashes. I can see how the two might be related. But I also somewhat suspect that early into red violations may not be the type of red light running that causes accidents the most.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by Retric on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @06:33AM (#14201929)
That's not what your link says, there is a modest aggregate crash cost benefit of RLC systems. It found this by: The economic analysis examined the extent to which the increase in rear end crashes negates the benefits for decreased right-angle crashes.

Rear end crashes cost less than right angle crashes. Further this does not mean there was a lower severity of crashes simply fixing doors costs more.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:14AM (#14202084)
It examined the extent to which the rear end crashes negated the economic advantages, and found that they did not fully negate the economic advantages. They instead had an economic advantage of ~40-50k USD per site per year. See pages 5, 68, 74. This is why it's important to go further into papers than just reading the abstract.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by Retric on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:15AM (#14203122)
I say they increase accidents you say, that's not true they lower costs. I say that does not mean they lower accidents. You respond yes they do, they lower cost. Do you really want me to say that's not my argument using different words?

If your point is sure they cause more accidents but that's ok because X then use that argument don't pretend there are zero costs.

PS: Economic arguments are very easy to manipulate based on what you do and do not count. So, yes I also disagree with the study, but that's not the argument I am making.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by reitanqild on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:58AM (#14200779)
Around here red light cameras where removed. I heard it was because they where found to significantly increase accidents.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by LoSboccacc on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:01AM (#14201026)
It's a complex matter. The company demands to retain control over the camera and makes the municipality pay rent if not enough tickets are issued.

Rlc issue is that incentive structure is all wrong, which lead to shortened yellows and people doing emergency braking at the slightest hint of light change.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by reitanqild on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @03:28AM (#14201132)
Around here is not US and while I haven't seen anything written about such incentives I think that might be because any setup like that would be found illegal.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by obstinate on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @07:07AM (#14202061)
Your "I heard" is not a relevant response to my linked meta-analysis.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by feld on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @09:23PM (#14199763)
You have a constitutional right to face your accuser. Traffic cameras have got to go.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by Godel_unicode on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:49AM (#14200505)
This has been covered to death on here, but your accuser is the officer of the court who signs the ticket, not the camera.
Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by u801e on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:23AM (#14203185)
For traffic violations where a law enforcement officer initiates a traffic stop, it's clear that the officer witnessed the violation and when issuing a citation, list details such as the make and model of the vehicle, the identity of the driver, the location of the offense and what what the offense was.

If the case is taken to court, the officer will testify that he observed the vehicle committing a traffic violation (the vehicle appeared to be exceeding the speed limit), the supporting evidence of his assertion (e.g., RADAR tracking history), the fact that he initiated a traffic stop, then identified the driver, etc.

He cannot testify, under oath, that he did these things based on video or pictures that someone else took. The person that did take the video can testify to that effect though.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by feld on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @09:19AM (#14202684)
Has there been something more recent than this case?

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2011/ca-macias.pdf

"Here, Officer Berg did not qualify as the appropriate witness and did not have the necessary knowledge of the underlying workings, maintenance, or recordkeeping of the Redflex Traffic System. The foundation for the introduction of photographical evidence and the underlying workings of the Redflex Traffic System was outside the personal knowledge of Officer Berg.

In absence of a proper foundation, the photographic evidence was held inadmissable."

The officer cannot be the accuser and introduce the evidence if he has no expertise in how the evidence was obtained.

Re:Is Every Speed Limit Too Low? by Godel_unicode on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @10:57AM (#14203496)
Yes, there have been a lot of unsuccessful defenses based around the camera being your accuser, here's the first one I found.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-supreme-court/1669146.html