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Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by stevenh on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:40PM (#14196087)
Imagine ransomware infecting your car that gives you 30 minutes to pay or you'll be rammed into a tree at 90mph. I don't care about any contrived and well-funded narratives about how unthinking, unfeeling, driverless cars will somehow save lives. No thanks, I'd rather take my chances continuing to share roads with human drivers who are careful because they fear their own death just as much as I do.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by nommm-nommm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:46PM (#14196751)
You're not looking at the whole picture here. What's your odds of being killed by a drunk/inattentive/inexperienced driver vs odds of being killed by randomware? Road fatalities are already the number 1 killer of some age groups, its estimated that over a million people worldwide die on the roads every year. Around 40,000 in the US last year. If we trade 40,000 road deaths for 10,000 ransomware deaths, it's a massive improvement.

Ignoring that, that ransomware wont' even exist for a number of reasons, the biggest being it wouldn't be profitable. Ransomware authors aren't going to get a payout, very few people are going to be able to buy Bitcoin in 30 minutes while unable to leave their car even if they wanted to. Not only that, it isn't remotely difficult to have a manual, physical, kill switch that physically stops the car in a life or death situation. Even if you didn't have a kill switch, you could simply call the police and they can lay down a spike strip.

>who are careful because they fear their own death just as much as I do.

LOL! That's a good one! Have you actually even been on the roads before!?! When I worked drive thru I had people who were so drunk they could hardly form a sentence come through my drive thru. That's just ONE example.

You share the road with these upstanding citizens who are clearly very careful and concerned for their own wellbeing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnuIWNv8lw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hddt4bWNns

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Spivak on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @05:02PM (#14197985)
If you're going to actually get people to change their opinion you should really give your own position the most uncharitable phrasing.

> Road fatalities are already the number 1 killer of some age groups

You're hiding a weakness in your argument by not specifying the age groups. You're hiding a weakness in your argument by restricting to cross-sections of the population that support your argument. You're misleading your listener by hiding the fact that this statement isn't because traffic accidents are unusually high, but that other causes of death are unusually low.

> Around 40,000 in the US last year.

Careful using absolute numbers, using 40,000 which is a very small number compared to other kinds of deaths like hard disease (800,000 deaths last year) can be misleading because 40,000 sounds like a big number.

> its estimated that over a million people worldwide die on the roads every year

You're hiding the fact that the US has 4% of the world's automobile deaths but 20% of the world's cars. You're using aggregate data to smooth over deaths that are caused by dangerous driving environments, roads, or ineffective traffic laws and misleading your listener into assuming that they're caused by human error.

Total deaths is not a useful statistic. The deaths that could have been prevented by L4 autonomous cars but could have not been prevented by L1-L3 or more conventional safety practices is what you should be presenting.

Give as little surface area as possible to people who would use it to push back.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by c22 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:03PM (#14196929)
What are the odds of a single drunk driver killing thousands of people?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by bdamm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:26PM (#14197133)
What are the odds of many drunk drivers killing thousands of people? p(x)=1.0, it happens every year.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by rainbowmverse on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @05:31PM (#14198253)
Humans are bad at risk assessment. You won't convince everyone a self-driving car is safer with math.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by c22 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:26PM (#14198708)
I agree that self driving cars have the potential to be much safer in the long run, but the concern that a single error could have outsized consequences is too serious to just be swept under the rug because "lol driving is already scary". How many drunk programmers are out there?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Strom on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:17PM (#14196463)
The ransomware scenario is serious, but merely opting out of a connected car yourself won't be enough. You can still get a text demanding payment or other cars on the road will ram into your manual.

As for sharing roads with others who fear death as much as I do. That's a wonderful idea, however in my case a pipe dream. I share the roads with people who have no problem speeding, driving under the influence or even refusing to use seatbelts.

Ultimately I'm more optimistic about solving the ransomware problem than I am about putting the fear of death into other humans.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by loup-vaillant on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:51PM (#14196205)
The correct answer to that is very simple, and very expensive: just make correct software.

Such malware are only possible because the targeted system has vulnerabilities to begin with. One just has to ensure the absence of such vulnerabilities, possibly using machine checked proofs.

One obvious approach is to properly isolate the driving software and sensors from external input.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Noos on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:55PM (#14197924)
It's not ransomware i worry about. What about targeting the lidar/radar directly? Some people still have radar/laser jammers, and only ten states ban them. What on earth will your programming do to counter that?

Or what if an actor uses something like this:

https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/29/now-you-see-me-now-you-don...

that confounds the car's sensors. Self-driving cars have a whole spectrum of attack vectors that human beings don't have.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by loup-vaillant on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @05:22PM (#14198167)
It is likewise quite easy to throw a rock on the highway from a bridge. What you are really worrying about is new creative ways to kill and destroy.

Yes, hostile input will have to be taken into account. Fortunately, this is easily detectable (just look at the logs). And if people die as the result, it will count as murder. Finally, one does not simply jam sensors from across the planet. You need a physical presence on site, and that's riskier than a remote hack.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Noos on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @05:48PM (#14198409)
Self-driving cars can make it easier to do this systemically, and not even purposefully. The jamming sensors I meant that another car passes by with a radar jammer on, for its intended purpose (jamming police radar sensors for speeding) and it hits the self-driving car too.

A lot of the current driving issues do suck, but they still will suck with self-driving cars, as any computerized system has its own vulnerabilities. It's just they might be systemic and affect a lot more people in ways they can't compensate for.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by c22 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:59PM (#14196890)
Yeah, let's just ask the engineers who are solving one of the toughest robotics problems ever to rewrite the entire house of cards that is their technology stack without any vulnerabilities.

Of course even machine checked proofs will have trouble finding vulnerabilities that creep in during the specifications stage or exist in the realm of hardware.

How do you isolate your sensors from external input and expect to do anything?

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by ThrowawayR2 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:18PM (#14197582)
It's not as if embedded systems work the same way as the jumbled mess of technology that web servers use. It's perfectly possible to firewall off core system functions into a separate network and separate individual processors for each function. Existing vehicles today have already a strict hardware firewall between the CAN bus[1] and the IVI[2] system to prevent bugs in the more vulnerable and less strictly designed IVI software from sending data that disrupts safety-critical systems.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-car_entertainment

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by loup-vaillant on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:00PM (#14197431)
> Yeah, let's just ask the engineers who are solving one of the toughest robotics problems ever to rewrite the entire house of cards that is their technology stack without any vulnerabilities.

I did say "very expensive". But yes, if we're serious about correctness, safety, and security, I don't see any other choice. We should scrap the crap and spend the $billions necessary to rebuild it right.

Ideally. We don't really need to go that far. Isolation is possible and not that hard, see Qmail: http://hillside.net/plop/2004/papers/mhafiz1/PLoP2004_mhafiz...

> Of course even machine checked proofs will have trouble finding vulnerabilities that creep in during the specifications stage or exist in the realm of hardware.

I'm no hardware specialist, but you can still prove the correctness of the design of such and such hardware. The actual chips can still fail the specifications, but that's easier to test once you know the design itself is correct.

Also, specifications themselves can be checked. Only the high-level properties must ultimately be decided and reviewed by hand. Not that they won't be complicated or numerous, but that's still much smaller and easier to deal with than the entire implementation.

> How do you isolate your sensors from external input and expect to do anything?

I wasn't talking about the normal sensor input, which of course can be tricked the same way human sensory input can (for instance with a big flash or something). I was thinking about sensor command, such as which way they should be oriented or something. Though I expect most sensors will have no such input, and will only output to the system.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by kbenson on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:04PM (#14196319)
> The correct answer to that is very simple, and very expensive: just make correct software.

I used to think that was unlikely. Then I had a few discussions with people about the state of C, and things that could be done to make it default to a slightly more deterministic case by changing how undefined behavior is dealt with in regards to optimization. Now I think it's impossible, because nobody is willing to give up even theoretical unknown performance increases for more security. At least for C. You would have to use something that's much more strict about behavior, like Ada with SPARK, or possibly Rust.

I'm willing to bet most the code already written for these projects is C or C++. Good luck getting that changed if so.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by loup-vaillant on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:51PM (#14196799)
Forcing a change away from C/C++ is easy: regulation. If a software error (or vulnerability) kills anyone, the vendor is to stop all sales and recall all cars immediately. Sales can resume pending an evaluation period, and the evaluation is to be made by independent experts, at the expense of the vendor. (We should heavily imply that such an evaluation can take months, killing the company in the process.)

Correct software is expensive. But if we make sure incorrect software is even more expensive, we'll get correct software.

Once the industry is forced to get serious about correctness, they will move away from the C/C++ minefield real quick β€”or at least come up with safe ways of using C and C++.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by sangnoir on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:35PM (#14197719)
> The correct answer to that is very simple, and very expensive: just make correct software

Correct software can be compromised via the update process, or social engineering. It's necessary, but not sufficient to ensure integrity.

A cheaper, correct option would be a mechanical lever/breaker labelled "manual override" for licensed drivers or "emergency stop" like they have on every industrial robot or heavy machinery since the 60's. Sometimes the answer to a software problem isn't more/better software.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by awqrre on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:04PM (#14197465)
There are no perfectly safe computers... even when air-gapped, they can get compromised. But one problem with modern cars is that they are connected whether you like it or not.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by dorfsmay on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:40PM (#14196701)
+ a mechanical override.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by MarkMc on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:14PM (#14196438)
Check out this graph about airplane accidents:

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2...

Since 1970 total airplane casualties have halved, while there are now 7 times the number of passengers. Much of this improvement has been due taking decisions away from pilots and into the hands of 'unfeeling' automated systems.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by monkmartinez on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:40PM (#14196705)
And look at the cost of planes and those systems. Absolutely out of reach for 97% of the world.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by abawany on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:55PM (#14196849)
But commercial airliners were never intended for private ownership, right? I would say a significantly large proportion of the world is unable to own a large bus and these are quite manual still.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Hydraulix989 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:53PM (#14196826)
I don't see how the ownership model affects parent's argument.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by maverick_iceman on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:23PM (#14198683)
You do realize that the cost of air travel has become much less since the 70s?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Qwertious on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:51PM (#14196201)
In all seriousness, ransomware that would kill someone won't be a remotely common thing - for one thing, it will be represented as "$COMPANY's lack of security KILLS PERSON X", and the bill for the ransom will need to be paid by them.

And then the cops/secret-service would get involved. If there's a death involved (and reason to believe more will occur in the future, which would be necessary for ransom as a prolonged business model), then they will come down on any ransomware (and responsible negligent parties, such as auto companies with shitty security) like a TON OF BRICKS.

Plus, there's still a lucrative malware model that goes like this: Infect the car, then quietly make it steal itself in the middle of the night (or at your moment of choice). Bam, you now have a stolen car that you can't be connected to, and nobody will notice for a while.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by ForHackernews on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:55PM (#14196850)
I think this is correct. Criminals aren't stupid. It'd be much safer (in terms of risk of authorities coming after them) to have ransomware where the car just refuses to go anywhere, or drives you to a far-away location, until you pay up.

People will pay a fair amount of money to avoid a major inconvenience, but "my car won't start" is a lot less likely to have the FBI beating down your door.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by mahyarm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:17PM (#14196464)
That could happen today. No car manufacturer is going to admit it's possible, but I'm pretty sure it's there, lurking: Look at this remote shutoff for example. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/10/onstar-gp...
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by maverick_iceman on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:20PM (#14198660)
Your car already comes packed with software. If you're worried about hackers gaining access you should be worried right now.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by fucking_tragedy on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:50PM (#14196195)
Or the inability to drive your car because of an unpaid parking ticket.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by tempestn on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:15PM (#14196447)
Except that with a self-driving car you'll never get a parking ticket in the first place!
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by sebleon on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:01PM (#14196296)
It can actually be a lot worse - entire countries will be held ransom when car networks gets compromised. Beyond disabling a countries transportation ability, a remote hacker could weaponize every car to attack passengers and pedestrians.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by maverick_iceman on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:25PM (#14198700)
Why wouldn't the same argument apply to electric grid or internet infrastructure?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by sebleon on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:55AM (#14200766)
The US electric grid is widely considered to be at risk: http://wapo.st/2qd2gFQ

Internet infrastructure is decentralized in nature, making it hard to control. Though rogue individuals can have outsized effects: https://www.wired.com/2008/02/pakistans-accid/