News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by jim-jim-jim on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:06AM (#14190683)
The article in the dupe thread suggested that this would combat "fake news," but I dunno about that. I get the impression that people who digest biased/questionable sources do it to express tribal affiliation more than some genuine need to be informed. Hell, many people share articles without even reading them; they're primarily concerned with what the headline in their feed says about their character rather than the world at large. I'm not sure if having (another) "evidence based" outlet is going to be of any use to your cranky uncle.

I think the real promise lies in Wikitribune potentially going toe-to-toe with "real news" like CNN or the Washington Post. These outlets also don't always get the facts straight and can't be said to have a diehard following. If a superior option presents itself, readers will follow.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by michaelbuckbee on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:47AM (#14191299)
I tried to track down some of the crazy news stories that were being shared broadly on Facebook and much of what I found was that they were algorithmically generated titles slapped onto the same URL and the actual "story" was copied bits from other semi-related stories.

You'd find really salacious headlines: "Hillary Clinton Murder Victim Speaks" and the actual story would be about her fundraising.

They were arbitraging the cost of buying a FB ad (to drive traffic and start the viral loop) against how many ads they could run on the site.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by benchaney on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:53AM (#14191103)
I agree that this won't help everyone, but I don't think it matters. Anyone who wants to stick their head on the sand will always be able to, I don't really see any way around that. I do think it is important for people seeking out accurate an unbiased information be able to do so effectively. This is becoming increasingly difficult.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:33AM (#14191480)
The danger here is not people who will stick their heads in sand. It's people who would not allow opinions different from their own to exist. So called "fact-checkers" were subverted by partisan propaganda in mere months. This effort vulnerable to the same too.

If it uses fully egalitarian participation model, a determined, vocal and ruthless clique would be able to enforce their view with relative ease, by just a) investing more time than others, thus gaining standing in the project and clout to use against opponents and b) just by shouting down the opponents and scaring them off - most people wouldn't care enough to resist an organized clique on some semi-obscure project.

If it uses some kind of "expert panel", it can be attacked by activists, demanding to eject people who hold controversial opinions, or make their life hard until they leave. It can also be selected to be biased from the get go - many academic disciplines and professions have a lot of biases. If in some fields majority of experts hold some opinions, they would also tend to select for agreement with them, thus enforcing the groupthink and completely denying representation to alternative opinion.

Any centralized system would be vulnerable to this. Any single "source of truth" can be subverted.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by comex on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:56AM (#14191573)
> It's people who would not allow opinions different from their own to exist. So called "fact-checkers" were subverted by partisan propaganda in mere months.

Months since when, exactly? Most popular fact checkers existed long before the "fake news" meme brought them to newfound attention.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:13AM (#14191652)
> Months since when, exactly?

Since they gained widespread popularity as a watchdogs and arbiters over the "regular media". This was long before last US elections which has triggered the "fake news" panic (well, triggered may be not the best word here, "involved" may be better, but I don't want to digress too much).

Well, I realize it's hard for me to give specific times here, mostly because I don't remember neither when exactly I started reading fact-checking sites, nor when exactly I started noticing propaganda showing up. Maybe some of them held for a year or two, and maybe some of them worked in relative obscurity for a while and managed to keep a clean record before they gained popularity that allowed prominent politicians to cite them as a proof, and thus became a target for subversion. And maybe there are others who I didn't know about and who have much better record (bad luck for me).

The underlying point is that what I observed is that once some outlet becomes widely known as arbiter of truth in any political context, and it does not have very strong independent filtering mechanism, propaganda shows up very soon. If it does have one, propaganda shows up too (e.g. there are tons of biased articles on Wikipedia and there is a lot of shoddy and biased research in scientific journals) but a bit slower.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by Angostura on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @08:48AM (#14192921)
I note that you're not mentioning the actual fact checking sites that you believe to be subverted, nor specific stories that serve as examples of this subversion.

I've seen criticism of Snopes, for example - but apart from one or two examples of cock-ups that they corrected, I've never seen any evidence of subversion - so which sites are you talking about?

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:10PM (#14195713)
Snopes is one of them, surely, that I've seen lots of partisan propaganda, especially on political topics (of course, it's hard to put propaganda into a topic like "did a woman in Florida marry an alligator and gave birth to alligator-headed twins?" so it's in political topics). But I purposedly didn't name specific one because they are all like that - snopes, politifact, fatcheck, you name it. I'm not talking about specific screwup of specific outlet, you can always explain it away, I'm talking about how things are developing (at least how it looks to me) in general.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by Angostura on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:13PM (#14197548)
So again - you're neglecting to actually post any links to this "partisan propganda" on Snopes - come now, you say there's lot of it, so show us some.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by feslerjared on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @12:52PM (#14204720)
"Partisan propaganda" isnt the largest issue, even if you find support of it. Fact-checkers just cant scale to the meet the production of news per day. Not possible. Not even with 10 trusted Snopes-like organizations. Snopes produced 830 stories in 2016 under their "News" topic. Thats 2 stories a day. CNN produced over 35,000 stories last year... then there is NYT, HuffPo, WaPo, Fox, MSNBC, Hill.........
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Thursday April 27, 2017 @01:10PM (#14213095)
I would but that would not achieve any useful purpose - any specific example I give can be either claimed as genuine disagreement and lead to a prolonged discussion that would derail from the topic completely, while arriving at no useful conclusion, or dismissed as either "it's small change, that's all you got?" or "this is just one example of no true Scotsman, true Scotsmen are different".

But ok, here's an experiment. Not snopes (I have snopes examples too, just requires a bit more time to find).

Bernie says black youth real unemployment is 51% - Politifact says it's mostly true[1], maybe even over that. Maybe the terminology was a bit off, but the point of high black youth unemployment is correct. Not completely true, but mostly is.

Trump says black youth unemployment is 59% - so Politifact says it's close to true, but probably closer to 51%, right? Trump is close to truth, but maybe exaggerated a little, as is his habit? Nope, Politifact says it's mostly false[2] and the real figure is a third of that. Note how in the first case PF is completely OK with extending unemployment definition but turns rigorously pedantic in the second case and insists unemployment is nothing but the figure published by BLS, and Trump's point - which is exactly the same point as Sanders had! - is total bullshit. How do you like them apples?

[1] http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jul/...

[2] http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2016/jun/20/do...

Want more? Here's more.

Ron Paul says there was no income taxes until 1913? Half true[3], there were short-lived efforts to introduce the tax (as if that was the point). Jim Webb says the same? Fact check is now "mostly true"[4]. This one was corrected postfactum, because somebody noticed and made fuss out of it.

There are many more examples of PF doing this - spinning the facts depending on who said it. Snopes is doing the same, and more - like taking a factually true statement, finding some retelling that adds a slight exaggeration or twist to it and slapping "mostly false" on it and dedicating most of the article to refuting that slight twist and ignoring the original fact. Because while the initial fact is true, this particular exaggeration or twist is not, so the compound statement is "false" and now the original statement can be reported as "found to be mostly false by factcheckers". Primitive manipulation, but it works.

[3] http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2012/jan/31/ron-p...

[4] http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2015/aug/24/ji...

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by Clanan on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:50AM (#14194005)
A simple google search will provide you with numerous examples, even of Snopes in particular. Here's one[0] by Snopes where the True/False statements don't even match the claim. It's obvious the "fact checker" (i.e. journalist) contorted the argument to reach a desired conclusion.

[0] http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-freed-child-rapist-lau...

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by Angostura on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:20PM (#14197596)
So I've just had a look at that. The True/False statements seem to match the claim pretty closely - which elements in particular make you think otherwise?
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by makomk on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @05:28AM (#14191945)
It certainly predated the 2012 presidential election, since there was that embarrassing incident where the PolitiFact 2012 Lie of the Year turned out to be true and the press came up with some truly bizarre contortions to pretend otherwise.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by yohui on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:47AM (#14192312)
Context: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/02/romney-...

> Key line: "Obama took GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and sold Chrysler to Italians who are going to build Jeeps in China." Romney's wording of this statement in a prior speech was even stronger: "I saw a story today, that one of the great manufacturers in this state, Jeep, now owned by the Italians, is thinking of moving all production to China."

> The claim originated in a Bloomberg News story, which the conservative Washington Examiner construed to mean that Jeep was struggling and considering moving some or all manufacturing from the U.S. to China as a result. When the Romney campaign was questioned about this statement, aides conspicuously stuck to it.

> In an important way it is the opposite of the truth. Between the 2009 bankruptcy filing and 2012, Jeep had robust growth. Its manufacturing in the U.S. was expanding and it was hiring workers. Its overseas sales also picked up, and it was considering re-opening shuttered factories in China. These facilities were not going to replace domestic manufacturing -- they were for making certain models of compact SUVs specifically tailored to the Chinese market, which are impractical to import from the U.S. So the statement, "Jeep is doing poorly and so will move manufacturing to China," is false, while "Jeep is doing well and may resume manufacturing in China," is true. (Furthermore, the deal that left Fiat with a controlling share of Chrysler emerged from talks begun before Obama was president.)

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by backpropaganda on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:11AM (#14192141)
This happens because of funding. If poltifact and others were funded by donations or subscriptions, this might not happened. If they are left to advertisers or rent-seekers, they WILL devolve to regular lying/biased media.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by benchaney on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:05AM (#14194153)
I agree. This isn't a problem with fake news so much as the response to it though.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by jim-jim-jim on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:28AM (#14191237)
I agree with you and I'm looking forward to checking this out if/when it launches. I was only taking issue with the title of the original article, which suggested this was a direct countermeasure to "fake news" rather than an attempt at better news. I think Jimbo is more concerned about bridging a divide between journalists and audience (hence his mention of comments sections) than he is about drowning out some fly-by-night spam mills.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by tmalsburg2 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:17AM (#14190735)
Yeah, some people may not care about it and go on to consume questionable but ideological aligned news. However, this is for the people who do care about reliable and transparent news. For these people Wikitribune promises to do a great deal to combat fake news because at this time all they can do it to choose between different flavors of fake news.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by backpropaganda on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:14AM (#14190954)
I see nothing about bias in this website and knowing that Wales probably has a liberal bent, this makes me worry if he only cares about fake news and not biased news. A true solution has to fix both, the latter being more important imo.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by matt4077 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:55AM (#14191110)
The top print publications aren't "biased", except for the well-known slant of their editorial pages (WSJ: Conservative, NYT: Liberal). "Unbiased" just doesn't mean what people think it does.

If, for example, some segment of the population starts believing that a presidential candidate is running a child prostitution ring from a DC pizza joint, it isn't "bias" when the media does not afford it equal weight to, say, a joint FBI/NSA/CIA/DJ statement regarding a crime.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by backpropaganda on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:07AM (#14192119)
If you want to know what I mean by biased news, go to /r/politics/ right now and count the number of news articles against Trump.

- Trump backs away from demand for border wall money

- The State Department is apparently spending money to officially promote Mar-a-Lago

- Trump’s border-wall fantasy is crumbling

- Trump’s White House Family Affair Looks A Lot Like The Most Corrupt Nations In The World

- CNN’s Tapper: US 'shamelessly' advertising Trump's businesses

- Poll: 73% Back Independent Probe of Russian Election Interference

- Anderson Cooper Warns: Don’t Be ‘Desensitized’ By Trump’s ‘Fake Facts’

- Mar-A-Lago removed from State Department blog after ethics outcry

Only one of those items was real news:

- Entire U.S. Senate to go to White House for North Korea briefing

Any real solution needs to make sure that it doesn't devolve to this mess.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by matt4077 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @07:11AM (#14192418)
Half of these are editorials, yes. Editorials have been part of journalism for as long as words were printed onto paper. The media is the forum where such debates happen. Also, /r/politics isn't news. Do such a list with the headlines on the NYT cover.

On each point:

- Trump was demanding "border wall money" and it was threatening to derail the debate over a budget CR. If he had not caved, the US government would have shut down on Friday. How is that not real news?

- If the State Department is spending money to promote MAr-a-Lago, how is that not corruption? How is corruption not news?

- same as (1). Also, check the URL: wp.com/opinion

- Giving powerful jobs to family members is the definition of nepotism. This is certainly commentary

- same as (2)

- Politicians make decisions based on poll data. Should the public not be told of poll results?

- Yeah, it's an opinion. It's not pretending to be news.

- Same as 2

I don't actually get the complaint. Do you consider everything negative about the President "biased"? What if he dies? Would reporting that be considered "biased", because it could have an impact on his chances of reelection?

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by underdown on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @09:24AM (#14193246)
It's bias via omission. Anything positive about Trump or the right has a zero percent chance of not being moderated away.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by soundwave106 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:25AM (#14194333)
Moderation / curation / selection is present in every single organization; this cannot be helped. Not only is it human nature (humans are tribal, and newspapers / magazines often target specific demographics or mindsets). but the sheer quantity of news makes it impossible to do otherwise.

I expect, in other words, the Wall Street Journal curated headline list to look different from the New York Times headline list, and likewise for the New York Times headline list to look different from the Economist headline list, and that to look very different from my local city paper headline list.

To me, "unbiased news" therefore does not in practice exist (and most complaints about bias are merely complaining that something exhibits "the wrong" bias.) The only true way of coming close to "unbiased news" is probably via meta-analysis. Humans probably cannot handle this for all articles -- a single person would be overloaded with information.

Realistically, the best you can do is limit yourself to a few select news sources that you find the most trustworthy, or that you care about personally (eg more specialized news sources). There is bias even in that, but as long as your curation isn't in one silo, you are probably more informed than most.

(Maybe machine learning could be used to generate meta-analysis of news items with as little "bias" as possible, however even here there's a strong possibility that the bias of the "trainer" would end up dominating...)

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by losvedir on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:57AM (#14194081)
How do you define "unbiased" that doesn't also apply to Fox news? For instance, on the foxnews.com homepage there's a feature "FATCATS' FRIEND Obama pulls in $400G with Wall Street speech" which is factually correct. While a casual perusal of nytimes.com homepage has a "There Are More than 2 Jobs in Solar for Every 1 Job in Coal" article, which is again factually correct.

"Bias", such as it is, is entirely in what stories are presented, and the slant given to them.

As another example consider this NYTimes article[0] "Free Market for Education? Economists Generally Don’t Buy It", which refers to a study where 36% Economists surveyed think vouchers would be good, 19% think they would be bad, and 45% are undecided. By lumping together "undecided" and "bad" the article can correctly make the claim "generally don't buy it", but another way of interpreting the data would be "about twice as many economists are pro-voucher as anti-voucher". But that's a headline you'd expect on Fox rather than NYTimes. But both are true!

[0] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/upshot/free-market-for...

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by te_chris on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:34AM (#14191049)
There's no fix for 'biased' news because the whole issue is a red herring.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by ckastner on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:59AM (#14191122)
How come? There are frequently two sides to an issue, both with contradicting evidence (Global Warming, for example). Presenting only one side of the argument might adhere to the evidence-based principle, but that would nevertheless be a biased presentation.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by vertex-four on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:06AM (#14191620)
There are never two sides to an issue. That would imply the solution is to "show both sides" on any given issue and then you're done, BBC-style. We consider this to be a flawed form of journalism - it substitutes "A vs B" for nuanced journalism and any deep understanding of the subject matter. You'd never know of the disagreements between climate change scientists because the whole problem is presented by the media as "does it exist at all vs doesn't it?". It also ignores the most prevalent form of bias - simply running stories on a given subject more/less often, or pointing out certain characteristics of people more/less often, and so on and so forth.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by fictioncircle on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:12AM (#14191185)
97% agreement is higher than the level of consensus on much of medical care, diet, or technology.

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals1 show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities. In addition, most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by qznc on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:48AM (#14191540)
The source for the 97% claim is usually the Cook2013 survey. Is a phrase like '...carbon sequestration in soil is important for mitigating global climate change' in a paper abstract really enough to be counted part of the 97%? Some of the surveyed authors disagree with their classification [0,1].

Cook2013: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/0240...

[0] http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-cl... [1] http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048...

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by fictioncircle on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:25PM (#14195050)
The most recent study (2015) on your second link that is a literal survey has 93.7% consensus.

The next valid study in (2014) is 87%.

It then throws in a study that includes people who aren't scientists with lower numbers.

Then you have Cook.

Then you have another study with 90% consensus.

Then another two more that includes non-scientists.

Then one with a different question.

Then one with a 100% consensus based on published scientists.

Then another one that includes non-scientists.

The range is from 87% to 100% consensus with 2 of 5 at 97% or greater.

I understand you are trying to argue I'm wrong but the moment you start referencing personal blogs and studies that include non-scientists, you aren't really debunking what I said to any great degree and none of the years overlap sufficiently so its really a charge of a trend of belief over time combined with different methodologies.

100% -> 90% -> 97% -> 87% -> 93.7%

That makes perfect sense given science is always going to uncover new evidence that there was some variation over a 15 year period.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by ckastner on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:26AM (#14191225)
Precisely.

Now imagine a publication that only presents the results of the other 3%.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by fictioncircle on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:29AM (#14191242)
Using that logic, you can never trust a single doctor because you need to see 20 of them to get a balanced perspective.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by ckastner on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:54AM (#14191337)
Using that logic, when presented with the perspective from 20 doctors reaching two different conclusions, you present both perspectives and conclusions. Furthermore, you do not suggest whom to trust.

Also, it is somewhat ironic that you chose doctors as an example, as this is the area where it is common practice to get a second opinion when presented with a material conclusion.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by fictioncircle on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:10PM (#14194879)
> Also, it is somewhat ironic that you chose doctors as an example, as this is the area where it is common practice to get a second opinion when presented with a material conclusion.

A second opinion doesn't require a 20 person sample size to have a a reasonable chance of landing on someone who shares your views.

There is a reason it is to get a second opinion, not 20 opinions.

The basic problem here isn't the irony you perceive but the fact literally _nothing_ in modern medicine functions if you require 97% consensus.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:15AM (#14191658)
A doctor that manipulates you for some purpose that has nothing to do with your health may very well end up losing a license and go to jail. A journalists doing the same just calls it Tuesday.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by fictioncircle on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:12PM (#14194901)
> A doctor that manipulates you for some purpose that has nothing to do with your health may very well end up losing a license and go to jail. A journalists doing the same just calls it Tuesday.

So your argument is scientists are equivalent to journalists who solely exist to manipulate you?

You are free to stop using a computer, taking medication, and driving a car in that case.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:06PM (#14195666)
> So your argument is scientists are equivalent to journalists

Erm, what? How is that my argument?

> journalists who solely exist to manipulate you?

I don't say they exist "solely" to manipulate - I say they consider manipulating part of allowable and normal behavior, and this should be corrected. Until this is done, the level of trust we allow to a journalist should be much lower than one allowed to a doctor. Because the doctor is supposed to be on your side, and the journalist is not.

> You are free to stop using a computer, taking medication, and driving a car in that case.

You seem to be answering something completely unrelated to my comment in any way. Please don't do that.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by te_chris on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:27AM (#14191235)
Your last sentence is my point, particularly this phrase: 'but that would nevertheless be a biased presentation'. Who cares? Trying to eliminate bias from everything is a fool's errand that will tie people up in pointless minutiae - just like whatever happens when warming sceptics are let near anything resembling a debate. These people want to sow confusion and division, so much better to ignore them, especially when their position adds nothing to the discourse.

We've already solved this problem: Professionalism. Quality professional culture is preferable to pointless nitpicking anyday.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by ckastner on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:14AM (#14191410)
I see, but doesn't that just shift the question from bias to "How can WikiTribune ensure quality professional culture?"
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by te_chris on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @04:58AM (#14191842)
I think so, but IMO that's a much more productive question :)
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:39AM (#14191510)
The point is not eliminating bias in each message. The point is adequately representing what's going on and providing tools for people to make informed decision. If some information source hides parts of information and distorts another parts of information, this goes contrary to that goal.

> We've already solved this problem: Professionalism

You say it as if it explains something. But it doesn't - what's "professionalism"? There are a lot of people that are literally paid millions to deliver news, and if you're interested in news (and not, for example, in making fun of the person you disagree with or reinforcing your preconceived notions about people disagreeing with you being evil and stupid) they are doing a spectacularly crappy job. Are they "professionals"? And if not, where does one gets them? Are people that fake scientific data "professionals" (happens all the time)? Are people that make grand political claims based on shoddy research or no research at all "professionals" or not? Where does one get that "quality culture" which would eliminate those common occurrences?

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by te_chris on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @06:39AM (#14192276)
You seem determined to focus on outliers rather than averages. There are lots of examples of professional news gathering and reporting organisations around the world that are trusted and reliable sources of information. A key part of this professionalism is that they have robust internal processes for self-criticism.

You seem to have an agenda to try and prove that journalism as a vocation is fundamentally broken, and this leads you to make hyperbolic statements and clutch at strawmen.

Take a look a little deeper and you'll see that journalism is a profession with ethical standards and is actually pretty robust and, perhaps, even honourable - it's the funding and business models that are the issue, but the actual practice is quite sound.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by smsm42 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:39PM (#14196075)
> A key part of this professionalism is that they have robust internal processes for self-criticism.

I am not observing any evidence of such processes existing. In fact, I am observing exactly the opposite - people freely moving between being political operatives and newspeople, political parties coordinating propaganda campaigns with friendly news anchors, known news personalities being openly hyper-partisan and not being challenged on it in their organization, independent thinking people being forced out (e.g. Sharyl Attkisson) and so on. I don't see any self-criticism going on.

> You seem to have an agenda to try and prove that journalism as a vocation is fundamentally broken

Journalism as a vocation is not broken. Journalists as a practitioners of the profession as it is practiced now are. Yes, there exist professional journalists, who do what they are supposed to do, honestly. Many of them. But now they are going against the stream, and working against the odds. And one has to be blind to not see that situation is getting worse, the trust in media reporting is dropping and the quality of news content coming from major outlets is terrible. You can call it "broken" or you can call it "temporary difficulties which do not influence averages which are still excellent" but its in plain view for everybody to see. And it's not my agenda - there are a lot of people around recognizing the same. Otherwise we wouldn't need special startups to do what journalists were supposed to do.

> you'll see that journalism is a profession with ethical standards

Ideally, yes. However, I don't see these standards being really enforced or even seriously heeded to. Very rarely I see any analysis done on bad reporting, and only in a case the organization was externally caught and called out on it. Maybe you're right and I am focusing on the visible outliers, but it seems to be that there are too many "outliers"...

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by backpropaganda on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:15AM (#14190728)
Wikitribune IS going to go toe-to-toe against CNN and WP. It's proposing a new news model where you pay for news by donations.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by gotothedoctor on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:50AM (#14191100)
Wikitribune's professed goal to raise enough money to pay 10 print journalists. That seems like a big stretch?
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by memmcgee on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @03:13AM (#14191403)
If online news could subsist on donations alone then it would in the form of subscriptions.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by jim-jim-jim on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:25AM (#14190763)
That's my impression as well. I was responding to an article title that has since been marked duplicate.
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by tmat on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @07:46AM (#14192579)
CNN gives no facts.. just agenda driven propaganda.. Wapo too.. of all the news sites you pick those two?
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by Angostura on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @08:53AM (#14192978)
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by jim-jim-jim on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @09:41AM (#14193389)
I'm not particularly fond of either, which is why I presented them as examples of why we need better journalism :)

To me both organizations embody a mediocre beltway mentality that isn't beholden to any one party or caucus. It's a thought process that props up lobbyists and thinktank lickspittles as overnight "experts" on whatever country we're thinking about bombing next. They're the kind of rags that will call Kissinger "a statesman" in his obituary. They present heated debated nestled snugly within the Overton Window to mask a neoliberal consensus. Not a fan at all.

Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by tmat on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:04AM (#14193585)
ah gotcha ya were on the same page lol..
Re:WikiTribune – Evidence-based journalism by tmat on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @07:47AM (#14192581)
CNN gives no facts.. just agenda driven propaganda.. Wapo too.. of all the news sites you pick those two?